Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The Pilgrims? You really need to study up on your history. And you didn't even answer my question to you. How has Calvinism been a catalyst for what you described?
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Calvinists and Witch Burning
- Thread starter Ran the Man
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The Pilgrims? You really need to study up on your history. And you didn't even answer my question to you. How has Calvinism been a catalyst for what you described?
Is any of the information provided in the article wrong? Yes or no.
If yes, then list the mistakes.
You’re acting pompous by objecting to an article based upon the format of publication - tabloid.
The Massachusetts native american tribes were not specified.
And yes, the Massachusettes tribes where not much better.
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No not much has changed. We did not like people outside our people then and for the most part still don't.
The tabloid article was something about Hollywood actor Johnny Depp!
Is it not apparent that the context in the OP is 1600s New England, not the 1800s Southwest?!
Where in America do you think the Pilgrims were? the Witch Trials?
Is it not apparent that the context in the OP is 1600s New England, not the 1800s Southwest?!
Calvinists have done horrible things. They have held horrible beliefs (George Whitfield's defense of slavery being one). Calvinism has produced n some awful and anti-Christian doctrine (like Parker's anti-missions movement).
But so has Christian doctrine in general. The problem with this line of "attack" is that it is seeking to link the atrocities as being taught within the system. That part is not true. It is where sometimes evil and sometimes well intended men took those doctrines that make the difference.
And this we can see throughout Christian history - from the Circumcellions who longed to "die for Christ" (unarmed they attacked soldiers until the soldier was forced to kill them) to the witch trials in our country.
Abuse and misuse does not mean that Calvinism is flawed (although I believe it is) anymore than it means Scripture is flawed because men have misunderstood and abused it for their own means.
But so has Christian doctrine in general. The problem with this line of "attack" is that it is seeking to link the atrocities as being taught within the system. That part is not true. It is where sometimes evil and sometimes well intended men took those doctrines that make the difference.
And this we can see throughout Christian history - from the Circumcellions who longed to "die for Christ" (unarmed they attacked soldiers until the soldier was forced to kill them) to the witch trials in our country.
Abuse and misuse does not mean that Calvinism is flawed (although I believe it is) anymore than it means Scripture is flawed because men have misunderstood and abused it for their own means.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I was about to slam you for your opening paragraph, but you redeemed yourself with the rest of the post.
Yea.... I included a plot twist
Ran the Man
Active Member
i guess that includes white enclave Calvinists too.
Neither do I know, nor do I care what a white enclave Calvinist it.
What are the numbers?
Ran the Man
Active Member
It's in an article I read. I have to find it.
You don't have to find it. Your comment was true by the wording (the use of "witches").
The inquisitions saw thousands killed for various heresies.
Calvinists killed approximately 80 "witches".
Dave G
Well-Known Member
To me, it's well-known that more "Calvinists" were killed by the Roman Catholic Church ( who teaches that God's grace can be gained by performing an act ( or acts ) of the will ) and its supporters in one day ( the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of 1572 ) than anyone ever associated with "Calvinism" has ever been supposedly responsible for.
Tack on the Inquisitions and the deaths of thousands during the Reformation at the hands of Catholic-controlled governmental authorities, and I get the distinct impression that certain people in high places throughout history didn't like "Calvinism" as a rule.
Some suggested reading would be Foxe's Book of Martyrs and a very interesting document I stumbled on some time ago...the Canons of Trent from 1563, specifically its Sixth Session, "On Justification", where the RCC pronounced all things "Calvinist" as "accursed".
Personally, I find the story of William Tyndale very interesting.... a "Calvinist" that wrote several pamphlets and books, one of which was called " The Obedience of a Christian Man" in 1528, he was largely responsible for the one of first English translations of the New Testament and expressed beliefs "pre-TULIP" a few years before Calvin was ever supposedly converted;
All from his own private readings of Scripture.
Yes, I've heard those stories as well.
Few that ran away from the settlements ever survived, at least initially.
Those that were taken in didn't amount to much, and in one case a group left Massachusetts Bay and established their own colony, which you may have heard of....Roger Williams and Providence, Rhode Island.
At any rate, that "better life with the Indians" varied... from slavery to equality to a quick death.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure where you're getting this information.
One of the tribes I'm descended from, some 6-7 or so generations back, is the Wampanoag ( subset of the Massachusett ), and they were known for being friendly, but keeping their distance from white settlers, for the most part...although they did render aid to Plymouth Colony in their time of need ( from that and other associated events we Americans get the modern Thanksgiving story.
)Other tribes in the area, depending on region, ran the spectrum from passive to hostile.
The Mohicans ( Mohegons ) were basically middle-of-the-road, while the Narragansetts were friendly, I believe.
The further west one traveled, the more chance there was of running into the Hurons, the Ticonderoga and other members of the Iroquois Confederacy; some of whom were very jealous of their territory.
Each tribe had rules regarding outsiders...some were used as slaves, some were killed outright, and some were adopted as equals or allowed to live near them in their own, separate settlements.
All kinds of things are done in the name of religion, usually by people who are caught up in moments of fear, zeal and associated with all kinds of mixtures of true and false doctrines.
As for John Piper, I understand that he is a very compassionate man...he just sees the facts of Scripture and acknowledges that salvation is God's territory, and not man's.
I agree, to an extent, but why paint the whole thing with such a wide brush?
Many of the people who came to the New World were looking for freedom from religious persecution, much of which they were experiencing at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church...which, again, taught and still teaches a form of "Semi-Pelagianism" called "Molinism" ( think: modern, 5-point Wesleyan "Arminianism" )....not "Calvinism".
IMO, you're also confusing the Puritans with the "Pilgrims" in at least one place that I can see...they were two entirely separate groups with separate charters.
The Massachusetts Bay Colony was chartered by Puritan separatists from England 8 years after Plymouth Colony ( chartered by people who left England, lived in Holland and then came back to England and were granted a charter before going on to the New World ) was settled...
If you check their beliefs and circumstances, they were fairly different, and their treatment of the native peoples was, again, different
Plymouth Colony were generally good neighbors to the Wampanoags, while the other Massachusett tribes around Boston and the Puritans suffered worse treatment, from my research.
Finally, the Salem Witch Trials were perpetrated by misguided, zealous and very paranoid Puritans who forgot God's commandment...love thy neighbor as thyself.
Some of the atrocities you speak of were committed by religious zealots who, yes, claimed to believe the doctrines of grace ( from what I understand ), and some were committed by those from the "other side of the fence".
With respect, I think you should do a little more reading, good sir.
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Jon made this comment which I agree with unconditionally and I have known men who have followed preachers, just to find out later they were flawed like themselves... If any brother is following Calvin and putting Calvin on a pedestal... Don't!... I don't!... We must all remember what The Apostle Paul said and the flip side also... Brother Glen
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
I am at a loss to determine why you think Calvinists were more prone to witch trials than other sectarians. The Scots and the Puritans (not Pilgrims) are among the few Calvinist areas in which witch trials were frequent. Latin Rite folks, Anglicans and Lutherans contributed much more to the death toll than Calvinists.
It also is true that the witch-hunt impulse began long before Calvin with the Inquisition in France (the Roman Inquisition, BTW, was skeptical not only of witch-hunts but also of persecution of the Jews).
Post-Reformation witch trials usually occurred in areas with faulty local government or external threats, or both. The Salem mess, for example, erupted in a community riven by internal dissension and one that had been threatened by King Philip's War.
It also is true that the witch-hunt impulse began long before Calvin with the Inquisition in France (the Roman Inquisition, BTW, was skeptical not only of witch-hunts but also of persecution of the Jews).
Post-Reformation witch trials usually occurred in areas with faulty local government or external threats, or both. The Salem mess, for example, erupted in a community riven by internal dissension and one that had been threatened by King Philip's War.
I throughly agree with you we can look down through the annals of history and even those who claim the distinction of Christians were guilty... Just because one didn't believe like another one... How much evil has been carried out in the name of God?... Way too much!... Remember the words of Christ to his disciples and they still ring true today... Brother Glen
John 16:1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Thank you, Brother Glen. People who call themselves Christians have committed atrocities for the past 2,000 years and justified their actions in the name of their religion.
And those who have not committed atrocities have been guilty of greed, backbiting, lack of charity, prejudice, pride (my favorite), and the list can go on and on and on.
Only God knows His own and will reveal them at the time of His choosing, and we can only hope that He will be merciful for the sins we have committed in the guise of piety. We mere mortals walk about half-blind and call good evil and evil good.
And those who have not committed atrocities have been guilty of greed, backbiting, lack of charity, prejudice, pride (my favorite), and the list can go on and on and on.
Only God knows His own and will reveal them at the time of His choosing, and we can only hope that He will be merciful for the sins we have committed in the guise of piety. We mere mortals walk about half-blind and call good evil and evil good.
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