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Calvinists are synergists

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The Archangel

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I had a sister who was brain damaged. If you attempted to preach the gospel to her it would not register. Your synerio is a fruitless one for someone like her. So are you telling me she died without knowing the Lord and are thus relegated to hell?

I believe the word you were looking for is "scenario."

The issue is the same for those who die in infancy. But, given the relative rarity of those events, they are--as far as this discussion goes--facts not in evidence. Do I believe infants and mentally disabled people will go to heaven? Yes. Can I prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt from Scripture? No. In the end, I trust God to do what is right, even if that is different from what I, in my fallen, sinful state, think is right.

The Archangel
 

thatbrian

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I had a sister who was brain damaged. If you attempted to preach the gospel to her it would not register. Your synerio is a fruitless one for someone like her. So are you telling me she died without knowing the Lord and are thus relegated to hell?

"To him who is given much, much will be expected".

The Lord is both just and abounding in mercy; therefore, in cases such as your sister's, she is pardoned either way, but not in the same manner the rest of are.

It's never a good idea to try to prove the rule by the exception. Gospel proclamation is means that Christ gave us to bring in the sheep; therefore, we proclaim the gospel.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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I believe the word you were looking for is "scenario."

The issue is the same for those who die in infancy. But, given the relative rarity of those events, they are--as far as this discussion goes--facts not in evidence. Do I believe infants and mentally disabled people will go to heaven? Yes. Can I prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt from Scripture? No. In the end, I trust God to do what is right, even if that is different from what I, in my fallen, sinful state, think is right.

The Archangel
So then, thinking is not knowing, not certainty.
Brother, carve this into your heart for its certainty, “It is by Grace you are saved.”
 
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Earth Wind and Fire

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"To him who is given much, much will be expected".

The Lord is both just and abounding in mercy; therefore, in cases such as your sister's, she is pardoned either way, but not in the same manner the rest of are.

It's never a good idea to try to prove the rule by the exception. Gospel proclamation is means that Christ gave us to bring in the sheep; therefore, we proclaim the gospel.
So how good then is the rule if there are exceptions? Christ is the living Word and therefore he is not limited in any way shape or form. Can angels be pressed into service of spreading the word, can Christ directly implant Himself into these...of course he can & I believe He does. God in His profound goodness can and will get to you no matter what the circumstance.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life.
 
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thatbrian

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So how good then is the rule if there are exceptions?

The rules are included in God's written word. My answer is based on my knowledge of His word, but yet it is speculative. Between the two, go with the former. There is no explicit answer to your question given in the texts.
 

supersoldier71

Active Member
Ezekiel 37:4-14 - The Valley of Dry Bones

Of what are the bones capable of without the breath of God? God commands Ezekiel to "prophesy" over the bones, and then His breath enters them and they become alive.

God appointed Ezekiel as a priest and a prophet,which would have occured after He breathed over Ezekiel's "dry bones"; God commanded Ezekiel to prophesy over the bones in the Valley; God breathed life into the bones. God Himself guarantees the promises of life after the regeneration.

There is nothing at all synergistic about this transaction.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
So then, thinking is not knowing, not certainty.
Brother, carve this into your heart for its certainty, “It is by Grace you are saved.”

Do not presume to lecture me on salvation by grace alone. I have paid a price for the preaching of the Gospel (though it was a very small price, comparatively).

It is true that anyone who is saved is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. But not all are saved, and none are saved apart from the Gospel. The error in your thinking (as expressed primarily in a different thread) is that God's grace comes to those who do not call upon His name. In Romans 10, Paul says:

[13] For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” [14] How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? [15] And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” (Romans 10:13–15 ESV)
His point is that the gospel message must go out, being heralded by a "preacher." The Greek construction carries the assumed answer to each rhetorical question. Paul asks, "How will they call on God for salvation if they have never heard of Him?" The answer is: They won't.

Certainly there is a necessary response to God--the response of repentance and faith. Responding to God is the fruit of His saving work in our hearts, not the cause of it. If there is no repentance and faith or calling upon His name, there is no salvation. There was no salvation for anyone without God's self-revelation; there is no salvation for anyone without God's self-revelation. That self-revelation is the Bible. If anyone is to get saved, they must be introduced to the God of the Bible, not some ambiguous and pedestrian "Great Spirit." If anyone is to be saved, the preaching of the gospel must be present (along with the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearer).

The Archangel
 

Yeshua1

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Regeneration precedes faith. That's where the two sides differ.

If one had to produce faith in Christ, as an enemy of God, prior to rebirth, no one would do so.

God's word, just as in creation, and just as in Lazarus being raised from the dead, produces life. He speaks and life springs forth.

One could no more resist his rebirth than he could his birth.
Fallen sinners do not have any capacity within them to hear with understanding and receive the Lord Jesus, apart from the working of the Holy Spirit to enable/quicken them!
 

Yeshua1

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I am struck by your comment on hyper-Calvinist. Could you detail just who and what you think a hyper Calvinist is?

In any event, a Calvinist (I believe anyway) holds to a Theocentric prospective of God...ie, not just Deo Gloria, but Soli Deo Gloria. Now perhaps that is what you mean by hyper Calvininst and if so then I am of that camp.
One who holds to eternal regeneration, who denies that the Gospel is meant to be preached to all, but just to the elect, who are saved regardless if they receive Jesus in this life, as they are saved, and receiving Jesus now would give them the temporal blessings of knowing Jesus now.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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One who holds to eternal regeneration, who denies that the Gospel is meant to be preached to all, but just to the elect, who are saved regardless if they receive Jesus in this life, as they are saved, and receiving Jesus now would give them the temporal blessings of knowing Jesus now.
And where can you find that?
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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If the preached Word were totally the means of salvation, none could be saved except those who hear the Gospel and there are multiplied thousands who have lived and died without ever hearing the Gospel preached. Again it’s my fervent belief that "By grace are ye saved" ... see (Ephesians 2:8).
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
If the preached Word were totally the means of salvation, none could be saved except those who hear the Gospel and there are multiplied thousands who have lived and died without ever hearing the Gospel preached. Again it’s my fervent belief that "By grace are ye saved" ... see (Ephesians 2:8).

Your "fervent belief" about being saved by grace is absolutely correct. Your application of it, however, is not. You are conflating and confusing two separate issues.

Your statement above must totally ignore or reject Romans 10:13-17. How can you state that people are saved outside of the preaching of the Gospel when Romans 10:17 says, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." If the Gospel is not preached, according to Romans 10, salvation simply does not happen.

The Archangel
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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Your "fervent belief" about being saved by grace is absolutely correct. Your application of it, however, is not. You are conflating and confusing two separate issues.

Your statement above must totally ignore or reject Romans 10:13-17. How can you state that people are saved outside of the preaching of the Gospel when Romans 10:17 says, "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ." If the Gospel is not preached, according to Romans 10, salvation simply does not happen.

The Archangel
How are you hearing? What if I lived in a country or area of the world that outlawed Christianity and so it was scarce? I’ve been saying for years that North West NJ doesn’t have a credible Baptist Church to even learn how to desciple? So what do you do, wait till Albert Moeller to direct seminary students to the hunter lands. God has his ways and means...people don’t expressly have some preacher roll into town. Sometimes it’s reading a book, even a bible....sometimes the HS puts an idea into ones head....maybe it’s a broadcast on the radio. But my real consern still lies with people like my sister who’s brain stem was fried due to a high grade fervor or a baby who dies in infancy, or the kid in Afghan who has been isolated to the spoken Word.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
How are you hearing? What if I lived in a country or area of the world that outlawed Christianity and so it was scarce? I’ve been saying for years that North West NJ doesn’t have a credible Baptist Church to even learn how to desciple? So what do you do, wait till Albert Moeller to direct seminary students to the hunter lands. God has his ways and means...people don’t expressly have some preacher roll into town. Sometimes it’s reading a book, even a bible....sometimes the HS puts an idea into ones head....maybe it’s a broadcast on the radio. But my real consern still lies with people like my sister who’s brain stem was fried due to a high grade fervor or a baby who dies in infancy, or the kid in Afghan who has been isolated to the spoken Word.

First: It's spelled "Mohler," not Moeller.

Second: Have you read Romans 1?

Third: The receiving of the Word can happen in multiple ways--a preacher can preach it, someone can read a book, someone can read the Bible itself, or, perhaps, someone can see a TV program or a radio broadcast. All those would be under the umbrella of "preaching."

However, the Holy Spirit putting ideas into someone's head as you've suggested in other threads is not sufficient. In Acts, the Holy Spirit does a work in Cornelius. But, Cornelius isn't saved until after he sends for Peter and Peter preaches Christ to him. So, if the Holy Spirit does put an idea into someone's head, according to everything we see in the text of Scripture, that person will then seek out the Gospel or a preacher of the Gospel. Perhaps God will even provide a preacher (like Philip and the Ethopian Eunuch). But the idea that the Holy Sprit can save without the hearing of the Word in some fashion is simply not biblical. And, you kick against those goads at your own peril.

Fourth: As you've already been warned: Do not labor in the exceptions (such as your sister). One reason I believe that persons such as your sister are saved (even though I can't prove it in the pages of the Bible) because she could not "suppress the truth in unrighteousness" as Romans 1 says we all do. Do I think your sister and infants are given a "free pass?" No. I believe their saved by the grace of God. But their non-cognitive state (or diminished cognition, or whatever) is fundamentally different from those who have never heard. Romans 1 is exceptionally clear on this: We all suppress the truth in unrighteousness and are "without excuse."

Lastly: I would caution you on seeking to making the Bible fit, support, an soothe your own personal experience. Your experience with your sister is very heart-felt, very real, and very tragic. However, what happened to your sister does not get to rewrite the pages or theology of scripture. The "Pathos" that you feel about the situation is undoubtedly deep--and no one would fault you for that. The error comes when that Pathos leads us to say the Bible says something we want it to say rather than what it actually says. We all fight that battle. A word to the wise here, should be sufficient.

Blessings,

The Archangel
 
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