Calvinists: Best Argument?

Great, then you agree that not everyone the Lord calls unto will respond positively.

That is resistable grace.

Of course it conformed to His purpose but His purpose included calling them and giving them a choice. thus we see He still gave them understanding to rebuke, call unto them and stretched out His hands toward them. But they had to reject or accept Gods truth and calling.

 

I can see why you might have that view. Don't you think that you really should consider why God would give anyone to Christ? Is'nt it true that man must believe before coming. Paul wrote;

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Somewhere along the line the man had to be convinced and convicted. Men will either come to the light or they won't the ones who don't are still resisting.
If there is an irresistable grace then there is no such thing as rebellion. Rebellion is resistance.
MB

 

For not reading the post you sure can accuse him of "reading traditions" into the passage

It's clear your "traditions" are set in stone, so it appears to be a waste of time debating anything regarding calvinism with you. I'm glad you have it all figured out.

 

I have to agree somewhat with Web here. What is comical but sad is that I was arguing against the 'traditionalism' of many Calvinists who do not question some key points (like the ones we discussed) of their beliefs that are based on (IMHO) logical falisies, and presupposition.

However, the passages I argued against was against the 'traditional' Calvinists concept of these passages that some accept without seriously examining and questioning it. Yes, it sounds good by itself but not in light of the surrounding passages and context of those passages and other scriptures. It is for that reason (IMO) the redering is not a proper one.

However, I am no fool as to say no traditions are good, some traditions are not only good but benificial as well.

So I will bow out and hope my posts help those who have questions and have given some answers.

Have a good day Isaiah, and the Lord bless you richly in all things.

 

I have considered why God gave the elect to Christ; my conclusion was for God's Glory...

Again as I have stated before there are two views of salvation; one from mans point of view, and one from God point of view. I see both aspects. But there is an order to salvation. God then man. God calls, man responds. I know there are two faiths the bible speaks of one like the demons and one that is toward God. When God calls and I'm speaking of His effectual call not a general call that he calls all the earth with. When he calls those who he calls will come to him. This must be true since the verse is very clear. All that He calls will come to Him. Now we must balance that out, scripture does not contradict itself.

I believe when God sets out to do something it will be done. There is no one who can stand against His Will. Now believe me I do understand there are times we see in scripture were God has called and they have not come, these verses are very clear (hear me out), but what kind of calling were they called with. For example God has been calling Israel for years and they have not come, right? So why have they not come. Because God has blinded there eyes, but there will come a day when God sets his effectual calling on them and give them a new heart and a new spirit and they shall come to Him. I know that seems I have just contradicted myself. But the difference is in the Calling. There could be something we are not getting. We both can’t be right, but remember we both can be wrong. So that being said if I have made since, I have come to the conclusion that there must be two types of calling. The Calvinist has named them the "effectual call" and the "general call" of God. It seems to fit into place for me, and this view Glorifies God more than any other that I have seen. In my view the Glory of God is what is most important.

As for the Scripture you have posted, I'm in total agreement with. God does reward those who diligently seek Him, and those that come must believe in Him. I will not go against scripture at least I don’t think I will.

Now your last statement "If there is an irresistible grace then there is no such thing as rebellion. Rebellion is resistance." let me just say when God sets His effectual call on someone they will not come kicking and screaming toward God, they will run to God, Run to Christ to be cleansed of there sins. Hence in them there is no rebellion against His call.

I hope that made since, I'm no English scholar just a trying to be a bible one.

 

Amen.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:4-7

 

To the praise of His glorious grace !

 

Allen, read this thread from top to bottom. Although you have pointed out the inconsistancy of calvinist in many of the same ways done here over and over again your manner and articulation was great! You took on all questions biblically and with the right spirit. I appreciate the example.
Tim

 

I appreciate the compliment brother, and at the same time there are those times when I am less than an example. Your encouraging words help a great deal in reminding me of humilty. Thank you.

 

The effectual call is the one that works and the reason it works IMHO is because there is no resistance. Many claim that they decided to choose Christ too. Although I don't necessarily believe that is the case. I believe they were willing to listen to the gospel and became convinced of it's truths. By hearing it and they began to have there own faith in Jesus Christ. We are not saved by our faith, but by Grace. So this is not a saving faith, there fore it isn't something they did to obtain Salvation. It is merely a product of the works of the Holy Spirit, and the word of God. They did not choose anything they just listened and the Spirit convinced them giving them that measure of faith.
Why did they listen? Calvinism says they were regenerated but, scripture never says this has to happen in order for man to be convinced of the truth. Many hold the truth in unrighteousness.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This seems so honorable to be so convinced of the power of God. When we see in scripture that it's His will that all be saved we have to consider why isn't this so.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
If it's God's will and all men aren't saved, there has to be some other aspect of His will we have over looked.
Christ said;
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
There is nothing between him and the light that should keep him from coming to the light.
Here we have man's limited freewill. His choice is to avoid the light and this choice was obviously given to man from the beginning. Man's free will is what keeps man from being saved. Man doesn't choose Christ because He can't. God has already chosen Him in Christ from before the foundation of the world. Man unforunately can choose not to come to the light and does for the most part. We don't choose the light we are drawn to the light and inspite of that drawing men choose darkness.

Humility is very rare indeed and I appreciate yours. I agree we can both be wrong but, Scripture is never wrong. Both Calvin and Wesly can be wrong which is why I do my best to rely on the Bible instead of the teachings of men.

When men come to Christ there can be no rebellion but, that doesn't mean they can't rebel making there call of no effect.

When I was saved I had reached the very bottom of myself I had come to the lowest part of my life and had wallered in it for quite a while. I was raised by God fearing Christians who had taught me the right way to go and I refused. I rebelled almost to the very end. I didn't choose Christ to be set free of my perdicament. I just became so tired I surrendered. I gave up the rebellion and when I did I became convinced, and convicted, still this didn't save me it only broke my spirit.
I don't believe man is saved by his own faith or anything that a man does but is instead is saved by the very Faith of Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

God gave me enough rope to hang myself and when I had painted myself into a corner I just gave up. It's when I gave up that all that my parents had taught me became attractive it was that moment of not rebelling that I became convinced and the conviction of my sins was so over whelming I saught forgiveness for all I did wrong and found it. Then I submitted my will to His righteousness.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
MB

 

Good comments.

It's just hard for me to understand when I ask someone why they think there saved and they always begin with themselves. I'm saved because I... The statement seems to me to be totally self centered. I am saved because I have done such and such.

It appears to me in the Christian world that I live in its Christ + me. And Christ + anything in my understanding is adding to the work He has already done.

I have talked with Christians that when backed into a corner they have said I know I'm saved because I was baptized, or I know I'm saved because I have been going to church thus many years. Christ + the works that I do.

Don’t get me wrong I'm not judging the persons heart. The statements just make me feel a little uneasy in my spirit. Christ Alone I scream in my heart.

We can’t trust in ourselves, in our feelings. This Armenian type belief has led to a host of errors one of which I know all on both sides of the argument would agree to not agree with. The belief that one can loose there salvation, but that is the end result of Armeniasm.
But that being said I see how mans responsibility must be preached. Christ preached it, the apostles preached it, I preach it.
I myself will probably struggle with this argument until the day I'm die, but for now I know that I'm a staunch 5 pointer. so until then, "Unless I can be instructed and convinced with evidence from the Holy Scriptures or with open, clear, and distinct grounds of reasoning ... then I cannot and will not recant, because it is neither safe nor wise to act against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me! Amen!"

LOL...I love that quote...

God Bless

 

Lets begin by lookoing at what is probably the most well known verse in the Bible.That verse is John 3:16-"For God so loved the world"....

Now,if we look at this verse and what it says,we can see that it says "world".

God loved and still loves the world so much that His Son,His ONLY begotten Son became the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of all mankind,if they will repent and believe.

This salvation isnt limited to a certain group but is available to all.It is for the world,not a certain group or set people.

In Rom. it states the following:

10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

These verses do not limit who may call on the Lord but says that any that call on Him can be saved.

Rom. 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Here we have salvation being made available to all,not just a certain group.

If one looks at the Bible as a whole,it can be seen that salvation is come to all mankind,to any that will accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

The Bible teaches us that we are begotten by the Spirit,we are drawn to Christ and given the chance to be saved,it is a persons choice as to whether or not they let Jesus Christ in and allow him to be their Lord and Savior.

God loves all,He made salvation easy and available to all.It is so simple that even a wayfaring man can be saved.

Isaiah 35:8
And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

There are several references to support salvation being made for all.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

God made a way for man to return unto Him,he made the plan of salvation that is for all people regardless of who they are or where they came from.

Mark 8:35
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 17:33
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Last but by no means least,a couple of verses from Luke:

2:10
And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

The birth of Jesus was annonced and it was joy for ALL people.

 

Oops,double post.

 

No again Isaiah.
Scripture drives my understanding and that is the only reason I can not accept the whole of Calvinism.

 

Of course saving faith is the only kind of faith that is important, did I ever state or insinuate otherwise? Nope. Your above statements with regard to faith being found only in the the spiritual man is merely a blacket statement and lacks support. Saving faith is found in the spiritual man since it was his faith that brought forth regeneration unto a spiritual man. That brings us back to the Calvinistic misunderstanding about regeneration. The natural man does not have saving faith because their faith is set on those things that do not save, thus it is not saving.

Actaully I turned your understanding around. I merely showed the context had to be side stepped in order to get your version. I truely feel sorry for you at times to have such an 'apparent' lack of respect for the Non-Cal brethren. You presume everyone not calvinistic are either inept, unstudied, and or are purposely twisting scripture to make it state what Calvinism does not dictate.

With that said, what does 2 Cor 2:14 have to do with Rom 8?:

Nope, I can't forget what scripture doesn't say

Again I state:

Again you have no BIBLICAL proof of accertion. Scripture establishes regeneration AT salvation NOT before. If one is regenerated before salvation one is made to be in a right relationship with God - Justified. They are also sanctified by God (set apart) before salvaiton, they also have the Holy Spirit empowering them (most calvinists state indwelling them), and that they are a new creation. But scripture states ALL of these are obtained THROUGH FAITH and not before.
It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

Remember, the 'new man' is not pre-salvation (what you term regeneration). For of the new man scriptures states: old things have passed AWAY (no longer there) all things have become NEW (having no taint, blemish, tarnish = sin)
Thus before faith they are saved, having their sins removed, sanctifying them, and justifying them. There is no need for faith because it already has happened. However scripture speaks in direct contradiction to your view by stating it is by faith these things occur. Therefore regeneration is AT salvaiton and NOT before it since we can not be a NEW man apart from faith.:thumbs:

It has been shown to you a hundred times but until you are willing to actaully hear it is becoming quite pointless to debate with you. Scripture is replete with passages that illistrate man 'CAN' believe like Josh 24:15, Duet 30:19-20.

Now watch how chooseing to believe establishes regeneration:

CHOOSE life - that you may (1) love God (2) listen to Him (3) be devoted to Him. For the Lord IS your Life. (new life).

Not to mention MANY others and also parables like the Wedding Feast.

You just established my point yet again.
Can - meaning they ARE able but they are not allowed to that which they CAN. So the question is when are they allowed? When the choice is set before them to choose. Not all will choose to do what they CAN do, but all are allowed. But they are only allowed as God moves upon them in His time.

You tried to take the verse in ROm 8 and state the natural man CAN NOT DO the things of the Law. I showed where Paul stated they DID DO those things contained IN THE LAW (of Moses). It completely destroys your premise because what you are TRYING to make it say is not what the context is conveying.

Have I denied this? No.

That is not what Paul stated. "they DO BY NATURE those things contained IN THE LAW". That is specifically speaking about the Law of Moses. The revelation IS the same because it is God who reveals it to both groups through various means.

The spiritually minded group IS the third group because they are not IN Christ/saved but are still in between till they believe and are THEN saved or reject and become damned.

What about those unsaved whom God is dealing with. This can take seconds or even years. I for one was one with thom the Lord dealt with for 2 years. You state they are spiritually minded and yet they focus on the flesh. When does regeneration take place Isaiah? When God begins dealing with them? Later on? right then (otherwise how do they know God is dealing with them)? And if they are regenerated right them, why does it take years? So Yes Isaiah, there is a third group, a group who is in the midst of a choice.

That is not what the verse is talking about. Again you want to maintain a view that is directly contrary to the context. I showed you that in Rom 2 man DOES do those things contained in the Law. If man does it, he does so because he desires to. The verse you keep trying to rest out of context isn't about all unsaved are NOT able or desirous to do good but that they can not live it - lifestyle. It is speaking about a lifestyle and living out those things continuously. :BangHead:

 

Isaiah,

We are not getting anywhere, nor do I see us getting anywhere from here except to a downgrade spiral.
This is quite apparent in your posting to web (post #193).

Lets us leave off, knowing we have both said our peace and made plain what we understand.

May God continue to bless you and your family in both life and health.
Allan.