Calvinists: Best Argument?

[jcjordan]

JC,

Children are born with sin, but they are innocent and not held accountable for it. Because Christ paid for it on the cross. They are innocent because of what Christ did, but it is still present.
Paul said he was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died.

Amy G.
Earlier I mentioned that:

I do believe that God wrote it in their hearts. Everyone will receive the commandment and if they live long enough, will transgress.

One thing to keep in mind, the audience is adult Christians. The epistles were written to churches and its members.

So, Christ paid for it, despite their lack of faith. Their faith wasn't necessary for Christ's work to be effective. So, you agree with Calvinism as long as it's only applied to children.
So, you agree that "All" doesn't always mean "All". You're applying a double standard here. You're saying that his audience is only adult Christians, so in this case "All" only means the adult Christians, yet you are saying that although the audience is only "adult Christians" in this passage, that the law is written on the children's hearts too.

 

[Outsider]

Hi JC,

So, Christ paid for it, despite their lack of faith. Their faith wasn't necessary for Christ's work to be effective. So, you agree with Calvinism as long as it's only applied to children.

Yes Christ paid for it. Consider this, what Adam done in the garden effected everyone on the planet. Regardless if you believe or faith in it. It did effect every person. Was Christ's work less than that of Adam? He undone what Adam done. Regardless if they believe it or not. No matter if you have faith or not. He done it anyway.
Now, just as Adam transgressed, so does every person, if they come to, what I call, the age of accountability. They are dead in THEIR SIN. They only way to be saved is by the grace of God, through faith.
Christ did more than just what He done on the cross. He also raised from the dead. Through this great work of Christ, He offers forgiveness of OUR OWN SIN and eternal life. This requires faith.
I agree with Calvinism. Except for the fact that Calvinism says that your born dead. I simply disagree. I do however feel that when we come to "That age", you die spiritually.

So, you agree that "All" doesn't always mean "All". You're applying a double standard here. You're saying that his audience is only adult Christians, so in this case "All" only means the adult Christians, yet you are saying that although the audience is only "adult Christians" in this passage, that the law is written on the children's hearts too

I am saying that "All" doesn't always mean "Everysingle person on the face of the earth". We have to consider the text. Consider this:
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.

Here we can clearly see that "All" doesn't mean every single person on the planet. It does mean the entire Roman World. Every person under Caesar's control. I do not feel that is a double standard.
Who did the apostles write the letters to? Who were they all addressed to? If I write a letter addressed to "Those that live in the United States", does it apply to those that live in Canada?

 

[Outsider]

I say I agree with Calvinism except the part that we are born dead. I also struggle with the election. I see evidence of it in scripture, but I still struggle with it.
Another point on us being born spiritually alive.
Christ said that you must be born again. doesn't that mean you have to be born a second time. I feel that everyone was born spiritually alive once. But when you fall, you must be born again.

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

I think I have caught up on all that has happend with the furums in regards to my most favorite subject (calvinism). With that let me reply hoping I understand what every one is saying.

Amy G. are you meaning to say that if a person does not hear the Law they are not held accountable to the Law? If so let me reply with:

Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
Rom 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves.

Just because a person never hears the Law, does not mean that they are Ok in the site of God. They will still stand before the Great White throne of Judgment before God and be judged for there deeds, Then cast into the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:11.


To the rest I say a typicle Calvinistic response. John 6:44 No one can come to the Father unless he draws (drags like a dead fish) him.


or I could say:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Eph 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Man was dead just as dead as Lazeras in the tomb unable to choose to be alive, even if he wanted to. (realy, realy wanted to) he was dead, we were dead. But God made us Alive together with Christ. Unless God give a person a new heart and makes this person alive, a person in now way will choose Him for salvation.

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

I say I agree with Calvinism except the part that we are born dead. I also struggle with the election. I see evidence of it in scripture, but I still struggle with it.
Another point on us being born spiritually alive.
Christ said that you must be born again. doesn't that mean you have to be born a second time. I feel that everyone was born spiritually alive once. But when you fall, you must be born again.

Outsider do you have a verse that says we were born spiritually alive once?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy G. are you meaning to say that if a person does not hear the Law they are not held accountable to the Law?

No. I thought that was what Outsider was saying.

Seems we all got our wires crossed. :laugh:

We are "all" responsible for our sin, whether our ears have heard the law or not.

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

No. I thought that was what Outsider was saying.

Seems we all got our wires crossed. :laugh:

We are "all" responsible for our sin, whether our ears have heard the law or not.

Amen Sister

 

[Outsider]

Hi LORDs_strateuo,

Outsider do you have a verse that says we were born spiritually alive once?

Here are a few.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

John 8:24 said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The last two speak volumes to me. He did something for everyone. Not that everyone has the possibility of something. He IS the Savior of the world. The last says that those that do not believe, will die in THEIR sins, not Adam's.

Don't get me wrong, When we come to that "Age", we die. We are dead like Lazarus, just as you mentioned. Dead not sick. But, I do not see that we are born that way.

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

Ok I think I understand what your saying.

I realy think we are not understanding Rom 7:9. Paul was refering to that he was alive in a way that he was not concernd with the things of God. Meaning he had no conviction for there was no law to convict him. Nothing telling him the truth of his depraved state.

1 Tim 4:10...Read it in its context All men does not mean all the men in the world; if it did, all the men of the world would be saved. There are some interpreting challenges here as well. Real meaning behind all men is All Kinds of Men, Kings, Famers, Poor, so on.

Romans 8:24 is refering to the eternal death. We already have verses (Plain verses) that tell us we are dead in our sins.

How do you read this verse:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
Sons of desobedience. When we are born we are either a son of God or a son of desobedience. Also look at Acts 13:10, Matt 13:38 and last but not least

John 8:44-47 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Joh 8:45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. Joh 8:46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? Joh 8:47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."


Am I Making sinse?

 

[The Archangel]

Hi LORDs_strateuo,

Here are a few.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

John 8:24 said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The last two speak volumes to me. He did something for everyone. Not that everyone has the possibility of something. He IS the Savior of the world. The last says that those that do not believe, will die in THEIR sins, not Adam's.

Don't get me wrong, When we come to that "Age", we die. We are dead like Lazarus, just as you mentioned. Dead not sick. But, I do not see that we are born that way.

Outsider,

You quoting of the John 3:7 passage has some issues in Greek. Almost all the verbs in that passage are passive which means the subject cannot, by definition, perform the action. The verb in John 3:3 is the same, it is passive.

The passive voice is like saying "The dog was walked." The dog did not walk himself, he couldn't. If a dog is walked, by definition, it implies someone (the subject) is doing the walking. To state this actively would be "I walked the dog." Dog, here, is the direct object; I is the subject; and walked is the active verb.

Greek is a real challenge when it comes to things like tense and mood. Passive verbs (as long as they are not deponent) mean that the subject is being acted upon by an outside force.

In this case, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he (Nicodemus) must be born again--a work that only God can do to Nicodemus through the Holy Spirit. This is what we reformed-types call regeneration, and it does precede redemption.

I hope this helps and I have enjoyed reading your posts.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Outsider]

I understand what you are saying. To be honest I can see it. But I am not sold on the idea that we are born that way. I feel each person that fails to believe must say amen to their own condemnation.
I do not believe that children are saved. I feel they are spiritually alive and if they die in that state, they do go to heaven. I feel one must first be lost, to be saved.
In my personal definition of being lost, you must have first been apart of something. For instance, The parable of the lost coin. It had to first be in there before it could go missing.
It is important that I do support that everyperson, if they live long enough, will die the spiritual death. It is unavoidable.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Again, I hold the position of who the scripture is written to. Paul wrote this letter to the saints which are at Ephesus. Could this scripture hold true if:
All of the saints at Ephesus were born spiritually alive because of what Christ did on the cross. They all came to the age of accountability and died spiritually. Then, by the Grace of God, he saved them.
Would they not have been dead in THEIR trespasses and sins?
Would they not have walked according to the course of this world?
Would that same spirit be working now in the sons of disobedience?

Sons of desobedience. When we are born we are either a son of God or a son of desobedience. Also look at Acts 13:10, Matt 13:38 and last but not least

I simply see this as being when we come to know good and evil and are lost. Not from our natural birth, but rather when we fall. As I mentioned, from that point, we are dead. And unless we are quickened by the Spirit of God, we will remain there.

I do not profess to have all the answers. I have struggled with this issue for a while. I like what you say brother. It truly gives God the glory. Thats what we are here for. But, believing the way I do, gives Him all the glory too. Does it not?
Don't get me wrong, when I preach, I preach to the lost and I preach a choice. Thats what He has called me to do. Now, if they respond or not, that is between them and God. That is where I place Mat 13:38 and other scriptures like it.

 

[Outsider]

Archangel,

In this case, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he (Nicodemus) must be born again--a work that only God can do to Nicodemus through the Holy Spirit. This is what we reformed-types call regeneration, and it does precede redemption.

I do not disagree. I was simply emphasizing that we must be born again, a second time (Again). Meaning that we needed to spiritually alive (again). It is most certainly only a work that God can do.
Just as our first birth was completely through the work of Christ, so is our second.

BTW, I like your blog. I am thinking on starting me one. Any suggestions?

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

Please remember they way you feel does not change scripture. Just becuase you feel something does not make it true.

Secondly when I have the oportunity to preach I also put the (Choice) out there.

I love what John Piper says about This. There are two ways to look at Salvation. God's way and man's way. This is simular to looking at a painting. From far off the painting may look awsome but up close you will begin to see all the imperfections.

The Bible does teach man's responsibility to choose. This is what is most often preached. But the Bible also speaks that man can not choose unless God gives him the gift of faith, unless God makes the person alive.

We Love Him Becuase He First Loved Us.

I call the Calvinist view a deeper look into scripture about salvation. We as Christians realy have to get a grasp of the depravity of man. We are Totaly depraved, enamys of God untill saved, and to get this correct view of man we must truly understand the Holiness of God.

I once was rebellious, corrupted by sin,
Pursuing the Devil's dark path,
Oblivious, dead to the state I was in
An object of God's dreadful wrath.

 

[The Archangel]

Archangel,

I do not disagree. I was simply emphasizing that we must be born again, a second time (Again). Meaning that we needed to spiritually alive (again). It is most certainly only a work that God can do.
Just as our first birth was completely through the work of Christ, so is our second.

BTW, I like your blog. I am thinking on starting me one. Any suggestions?

Cool.

As far as the blog thing goes...I think wordpress.com is pretty idiot proof--it has to be for me to use it! There is now up to 3gigs of free uploading space and they allow pages (which I find to be very helpful). My wife has done our family blog on blogspot.com, but I've never messed with it.

Wordpress has many themes you can choose and you can upload your own header pictures. The one on mine is a picture my mom took at Ocean City, MD/Bethany Beach, DE (?). But, yep...it's idiot proof and easy to use.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Jarthur001]

No, try Romans 7:9 for starters.

Maybe this would be a good time to take a class on the book of Romans.

Maybe just looking at verse 6 will help...

6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

What is meant by "released from the law"? No longer guilty.


In Romans 1 and 2 we know man has the law on their heart, so we know that there is no time man is without guilt. However, man at times lives with no mind of the law.

Romans 7:9

For I was alive without the law once,....

Paul is saying is not saying here that he lived in a state of innocence. He is claiming he lived lawless.....not following the law....he lived in sin. Paul did not obey the Law.

but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.....

Paul is telling us what the Law did to him. Its the same thing the law does to all of us. The law is like a bony little finger pointing at you saying.."Guilty". This is when you die in your pride and know you are a sinner. This is what the law of God does to all of us. It reminds use we are guilty. If Paul had killed someone and had never thought of the commanment "thou shall not murder", would Paul still be guilty? Yes of course. He may not feel the guilt till he thinks of the law or is reminder of the law by the police, but Paul is still guilty even if he never thinks about the law..."though shall not murder".

If we hold to the way you wish to see this passage, we only need to keep the Bible away from all sinners. For if they do not know the law, they are never guilty. That is foolish.

This of course does not support OS, but the passage was not meant to do this. For that we can look at other passages

 

[MB]

Just wanted to point out that "Inability" is the inability to love the light more than the darkness.
That's the whole point. Man, without the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit, will always love his sin more than the Light of the world.

It is not an inability to Love the light. It's an ability to avoid it. I'm not saying that man will come to the light on His own. However the Holy Spirit is not disabled and can convince man of the truth and convict man of his sin with out prefaith regeneration which is another concept of Calvinism that isn't found in scripture. All man has to do is nothing. The only choice man has is the ability to rebel. If the man doesn't rebel then the man will be convinced and convicted.
The Power of God is effective though it is not forceful. If Man doesn't rebel then the man is willing and listening to the gospel. Christ said all men will be drawn,
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Paul says Salvation is sent to the Gentiles and this is our election. Christ died for the whole world. Not just a few, so that the whosever’s might be saved.
As far as Loving the light;
Man doesn't love the light because it exposes his sin.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Because man hates the light is why preachers are needed to shine it on them anyway. When we shine our light on them it convicts them some hate the light even more but, not for a lack of understanding. Each time the light is shined on the sinner it convicts him even more. For some it's a long process of having there sin exposed many times before they begin to become convinced that they are sinners and that there is Salvation. It isn't until a man is completely convinced and convicted that he believes. We all know that being convinced is what believing is all about. Still the man can rebel. Sadly some know the truth in unrighteousness and they go about trying to do some work to become deserving when we are never deserving of anything from God. Everyone of us is wretched. Any righteousness in any mere man isn't his own righteousness but God's. Even after Salvation man still has his freewill and can pick it up and sin to his hearts discontent. It's still rebellion against God. It has always been about rebellion. It has never been about a choice to choose Christ. We do not choose Christ he has already chosen us when he died for the whole world.
MB

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

What we have I belive is a break down in what the Atonement actually did. Let me give you three choices:

1. Jesus' death was not an actual atonement, but only something that makes atonement possible. The atonement becomes actual when the sinner repents of his or her sin and believes on Jesus.

2. Jesus' death was an actual atonement for the sins of God's elect people with the result that these, and only these, are delivered from sin's penalty.

3. Jesus' death was an actual atonement for the sin of all people with the result that all people are saved.

You make the choice, be carefull only one fits the correct definition of atonement.

 

[Jarthur001]

What we have I belive is a break down in what the Atonement actually did. Let me give you three choices:

1. Jesus' death was not an actual atonement, but only something that makes atonement possible. The atonement becomes actual when the sinner repents of his or her sin and believes on Jesus.

2. Jesus' death was an actual atonement for the sins of God's elect people with the result that these, and only these, are delivered from sin's penalty.

3. Jesus' death was an actual atonement for the sin of all people with the result that all people are saved.

You make the choice, be carefull only one fits the correct definition of atonement.

kinda sounds like death of death

 

[webdog]

So then, the Law "isn't" written on ALL men's hearts. Just men of a certain age. Would you say that "All" doesn't always mean "All"?

The Law is written on their hearts. They are unable to understand it, hence they are not held accountable. All does mean all.

 

[webdog]

Romans 7:9

For I was alive without the law once,....

Paul is saying is not saying here that he lived in a state of innocence. He is claiming he lived lawless.....not following the law....he lived in sin. Paul did not obey the Law.

but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.....

Paul is telling us what the Law did to him. Its the same thing the law does to all of us. The law is like a bony little finger pointing at you saying.."Guilty". This is when you die in your pride and know you are a sinner. This is what the law of God does to all of us. It reminds use we are guilty.

Paul was not speaking about a point in his adult life...but most likely when he came to the realization that breaking of God's law is sin (being jewish, the bar mitvah). Your position has the problem of Paul stating he was "alive" during his lawlessness.