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Calvinists, consider another perspective on Rm. 9
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
Rom 9:22 -23
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
I will say that every person born of Adam is born dead in trespasses in sins (eph 2:1) and even those chosen in there natural state act "as children of wrath even as others"
So to apply this to Romans 9:22-23
23 known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which "he had afore prepared unto glory,"
He prepared a people by choosing them (electing them) and put them in Christ. They at time were convent children, then at Calvary legally bought chridren, and at some point in their natural lives they are born again and they are vital children of God when they are born again.
Gal 4: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
I see it this way... because you are "covenenant" sons.. sons because of the everlasting coventant of grace (2nd Sam 24:1-8, John 17:2, ti 1:2, john 17:2, Heb 13:18-21)
He sends forth His spirit (john 3:8) and quickens or makes them alive to GOd.
So He had to prepare a people. However the other vessels are fitted for destruction the pronound "he" is not there. meaning their works prove they are worthy of wrath. Sinful man deserves according to the divine holiness of God. So do we all but He has mercy on whom he has mercy. But he is hands off... Matt 25.. states His sheep and the goats.
But out of that same lump He chose a large group of people (many Matt 20:28, Is 53:11-12, Heb 9:27-28), and prepared them through the merits of Christ.
I have a hard time seeing Romans 9 is jew Gentile consideration, I think in the book there is much to discuss of jew gentile but Romans 9.. I do not see it... I think in the fist part of Romans 9 He is dealing with the Isreal attitude that they have had the law, promises, covenants, etc but then Paul says all of isreal are not Isreal.. meaning physical orgin has no bearing on being given eternal life. meaning all of natural Isreal is not spiritual Israel.
just some thoughts becasue most people fall into the "double predestination" and I hate that one. I just see man is worthy of it and God doesn't have to do anything for them to desereve His Wrath...
I do not see where God had to save anybody... He chose to save a vast majority for His Glory.
God bless,
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
I will say that every person born of Adam is born dead in trespasses in sins (eph 2:1) and even those chosen in there natural state act "as children of wrath even as others"
So to apply this to Romans 9:22-23
23 known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which "he had afore prepared unto glory,"
He prepared a people by choosing them (electing them) and put them in Christ. They at time were convent children, then at Calvary legally bought chridren, and at some point in their natural lives they are born again and they are vital children of God when they are born again.
Gal 4: 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
I see it this way... because you are "covenenant" sons.. sons because of the everlasting coventant of grace (2nd Sam 24:1-8, John 17:2, ti 1:2, john 17:2, Heb 13:18-21)
He sends forth His spirit (john 3:8) and quickens or makes them alive to GOd.
So He had to prepare a people. However the other vessels are fitted for destruction the pronound "he" is not there. meaning their works prove they are worthy of wrath. Sinful man deserves according to the divine holiness of God. So do we all but He has mercy on whom he has mercy. But he is hands off... Matt 25.. states His sheep and the goats.
But out of that same lump He chose a large group of people (many Matt 20:28, Is 53:11-12, Heb 9:27-28), and prepared them through the merits of Christ.
I have a hard time seeing Romans 9 is jew Gentile consideration, I think in the book there is much to discuss of jew gentile but Romans 9.. I do not see it... I think in the fist part of Romans 9 He is dealing with the Isreal attitude that they have had the law, promises, covenants, etc but then Paul says all of isreal are not Isreal.. meaning physical orgin has no bearing on being given eternal life. meaning all of natural Isreal is not spiritual Israel.
just some thoughts becasue most people fall into the "double predestination" and I hate that one. I just see man is worthy of it and God doesn't have to do anything for them to desereve His Wrath...
I do not see where God had to save anybody... He chose to save a vast majority for His Glory.
God bless,
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
I see all men as "all types of men" or atleast those beyond Jewish descent.. for example
Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
Did every single person come to John?
ALso in Heb 2:9 "every man" is qualified in
v10 "many sons to glory"
v11 "the santified"
v12 "the brethern in the midst of the church"
v13 "the children which God hath given me"
every man can verily mean all types.. rich, poot, blind, sick, black, white, jew, gentile.. and out of every kindred, tribe, tougnge, and
people. (Rev 5:9)
just some thoughts.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
I see all men as "all types of men" or atleast those beyond Jewish descent.. for example
Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
Did every single person come to John?
ALso in Heb 2:9 "every man" is qualified in
v10 "many sons to glory"
v11 "the santified"
v12 "the brethern in the midst of the church"
v13 "the children which God hath given me"
every man can verily mean all types.. rich, poot, blind, sick, black, white, jew, gentile.. and out of every kindred, tribe, tougnge, and
people. (Rev 5:9)
just some thoughts.
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
2 peter 3:9...
9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I see this as toward the "us-ward" and us is who he is writing to.
Hope this helps...
Larry
9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I see this as toward the "us-ward" and us is who he is writing to.
Hope this helps...
Larry
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
Ray,
please do not feel like I am picking on you
I have been where you are at and most times when I was searching if I didn't get the context I missed the verse...
I mean this only to try to help you see other angles and for you to seek God on the answers.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
those who spiritual "hear" and spiritually "thirts" theere has got ot be spiritual birth before action....
John:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 ¶ Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 5
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
2n cor 2
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So if person can understand spirital things.... then they have the spirit of God.
He that hath an ear let him hear...
Hope this helps dear brother
Larry
please do not feel like I am picking on you
I have been where you are at and most times when I was searching if I didn't get the context I missed the verse...
I mean this only to try to help you see other angles and for you to seek God on the answers.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
those who spiritual "hear" and spiritually "thirts" theere has got ot be spiritual birth before action....
John:
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 ¶ Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
John 5
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
2n cor 2
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
So if person can understand spirital things.... then they have the spirit of God.
He that hath an ear let him hear...
Hope this helps dear brother
Larry
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
Ray,
In most of the other scriptures you have asked about.... I will use the all men as "all types of men". This comes down to fundementals.. dead in trespassed in sins.. no spritual activity unless God makes alive. I have taken a liberty in trying to shed light and I hope I am not to over whelming...
Also, if all men are to be saved then the Love of God and the death of Christ are for all, but the Spirit on borns some that God loves and CHrist died for.. results in disunity in the Godhead. There wills must be the same.
Also here are some others to think about the atonement (matt 20:28, 26:28, Is 53:11-12, Heb 9:27-28, JOhn 17:2,etc.) and do not neglect Lev 16 which will help in Heb 9..
Also if it is all men, then the Love of God and the atonment of Christ, were only primers for salvation, and the deciding factor is man's descion or acceptance?
JOhn 1:12-13 (birst before action) notice the "which were not of blood.... but of God"
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
-----------------
Rev 3:20 is the last church that the angel spoke two... and all [seven churches] had a different reward if they had an ear to hear and they did. For me to stay consistent, I would have to equate all the rewards to immortal glory and I do not see that.. I see this more of a fellowhsiping with His people. Now some of these may sound like immortoal glory but they are all different rewards. I believe it is believers that need to overcome to continue in fellowship with God. ALso Philidephia had an open door, Lacedians had a closed one... I think it is moer of Husband going to His Bride individually correctly there problems. I would like to go further into these but I do not have time....
Eph.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Smyrna
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Pergomos
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it
Thyratira
2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Sardis:
3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (just rememver there are two books of life, one being the lamb's book the other is the one in Moses' day.)
Philadelphia:
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Laodiceans:
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
May the Lord bless you studing efforts..I would like to hear your thoughts//
In Love,
Larry
Larry
In most of the other scriptures you have asked about.... I will use the all men as "all types of men". This comes down to fundementals.. dead in trespassed in sins.. no spritual activity unless God makes alive. I have taken a liberty in trying to shed light and I hope I am not to over whelming...
Also, if all men are to be saved then the Love of God and the death of Christ are for all, but the Spirit on borns some that God loves and CHrist died for.. results in disunity in the Godhead. There wills must be the same.
Also here are some others to think about the atonement (matt 20:28, 26:28, Is 53:11-12, Heb 9:27-28, JOhn 17:2,etc.) and do not neglect Lev 16 which will help in Heb 9..
Also if it is all men, then the Love of God and the atonment of Christ, were only primers for salvation, and the deciding factor is man's descion or acceptance?
JOhn 1:12-13 (birst before action) notice the "which were not of blood.... but of God"
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
-----------------
Rev 3:20 is the last church that the angel spoke two... and all [seven churches] had a different reward if they had an ear to hear and they did. For me to stay consistent, I would have to equate all the rewards to immortal glory and I do not see that.. I see this more of a fellowhsiping with His people. Now some of these may sound like immortoal glory but they are all different rewards. I believe it is believers that need to overcome to continue in fellowship with God. ALso Philidephia had an open door, Lacedians had a closed one... I think it is moer of Husband going to His Bride individually correctly there problems. I would like to go further into these but I do not have time....
Eph.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Smyrna
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Pergomos
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it
Thyratira
2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Sardis:
3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. (just rememver there are two books of life, one being the lamb's book the other is the one in Moses' day.)
Philadelphia:
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Laodiceans:
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
May the Lord bless you studing efforts..I would like to hear your thoughts//
In Love,
Larry
Larry
Ray Berrian
New Member
Rc,
Jesus has infinite love for all lost souls. On judgment day this will all change and the wicked will experience it.
Please, let us not blame the Apostle Paul and expecially not Jesus for your 'cherry picking' philosophy.
Jesus has infinite love for all lost souls. On judgment day this will all change and the wicked will experience it.
Ray Berrian
New Member
Johnp,
I said, 'Jesus has infinite love for all lost souls. On judgment day this will all change and the wicked will experience it. I might have added for clarity that His love will change toward the sinners and will become justice and judgment on their souls.
If anyone disagrees with this above statement then they believe in universalism. Karl Barth even argued for Judas' election.
God knows some are elected to salvation and the remainder walk through the gates of Hell.
I said, 'Jesus has infinite love for all lost souls. On judgment day this will all change and the wicked will experience it. I might have added for clarity that His love will change toward the sinners and will become justice and judgment on their souls.
If anyone disagrees with this above statement then they believe in universalism. Karl Barth even argued for Judas' election.
God knows some are elected to salvation and the remainder walk through the gates of Hell.
Ray.
Barth was a very clever man. How did he get into this conversation? Do I sound like a universalist?
Jesus has infinite: 1 : being without limits of any kind : subject to no limitation or external determination 2 a : having no end : extending indefinitely 3 : having no limit in power, capacity, knowledge, or excellence : immeasurably or inconceivably great
love for all the lost souls.
Strange love. Strange infinite love. You don't know love.
[quote}...and the remainder walk through the gates of Hell.[/quote]
That's the Lords business.
johnp.
Barth was a very clever man. How did he get into this conversation? Do I sound like a universalist?
Did he? That's interesting. That is not scriptural is it?
You have a tendency to use language in strange and mysterious ways.
Jesus has infinite: 1 : being without limits of any kind : subject to no limitation or external determination 2 a : having no end : extending indefinitely 3 : having no limit in power, capacity, knowledge, or excellence : immeasurably or inconceivably great
love for all the lost souls.
Strange love. Strange infinite love. You don't know love.
Of course He does He says that He elected them. He elected the angels that did not fall as well.
[quote}...and the remainder walk through the gates of Hell.[/quote]
That's the Lords business.
johnp.
Ray Berrian
New Member
God created angels for His glory and for His service toward those who live on earth and those who worship Him in Heaven. The O.T. says, ‘when iniquity was found in thee . . . ’ It is at this point that the Godhead threw this lofty angel out of Heaven because he tried to take over the authority of Heaven itself. We are told that 1/3rd of all angels fell from grace when he tried to mastermind this terrible plan. Although God knew this would happen, the Lord did not ordain this event. Angels have choices/wills just as all human beings have been given rights to run their own lives, by Almighty God. If He is not willing that any sinner be lost [II Peter 3:9] one would believe that if it were totally in the Lord’s hands, all would be Effectually Called, as the Calvinist’s pretend to be factual, as to the calling of only the elect.
Although God in His ‘foreknowledge’ knew that Adam and Eve would Fall, He did not ordain/make them violate His Divine law set before them in the Garden of Eden.
Although God in His ‘foreknowledge’ knew that Adam and Eve would Fall, He did not ordain/make them violate His Divine law set before them in the Garden of Eden.
Hello Ray.
You must modify your universalist opinion because God clearly said that He would not give a sacrifice for Eli's sons thus making Him not willing to save them. They died in their sin without the atonement being offered or made for them.
johnp.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
That, what you say, is unscriptural is it not? The text clearly says, "He is patient with you." Who? Those that Peter is talking to and they are his congregation.
You must modify your universalist opinion because God clearly said that He would not give a sacrifice for Eli's sons thus making Him not willing to save them. They died in their sin without the atonement being offered or made for them.
Could you give me scripture and verse for the numbers please?
johnp.
Ray Berrian
New Member
johnp,
________________________________________
I formerly said, 'If He is not willing that any sinner be lost [II Peter 3:9] one would believe that if it were totally in the Lord’s hands, all would be Effectually Called, as the Calvinist’s pretend to be factual, as to the calling of only the elect.'
________________________________________
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
quote:
________________________________________
If He is not willing that any sinner be lost [II Peter 3:9]...
________________________________________
That, what you say, is unscriptural is it not? The text clearly says, "He is patient with you." Who? Those that Peter is talking to and they are his congregation.
You must modify your universalist opinion because God clearly said that He would not give a sacrifice for Eli's sons thus making Him not willing to save them. They died in their sin without the atonement being offered or made for them.
I am saying that the English words ‘not willing’ is the Greek word, (boulomenos) meaning ‘to determine or purpose’ and the words in English ‘to us-ward is more like ‘any’. So Peter is saying that the Lord is patient with (humas) meaning you not determining or purposing that any should perish, but that all men {sinners} should come to repentance. This verse is in agreement with I Timothy 2:4 where Paul says, ‘Who wishes all men to be saved . . . ’ Check out the Greek word. Do not blame me for God’s universal call to salvation and eternal life, it is God who desires that all lost souls believe in Him. I or no other more Arminian kind of thinker believes in universalism or universal salvation. We know that all who remain in unbelief will end up in Hell. [John 3:18b,c,] I think you meant your word ‘universalist’ as to cast a bad shadow over my Biblical theology and perhaps an aspersion on my understanding of God.
________________________________________
We are told that 1/3rd of all angels fell from grace...
________________________________________
Arminian theology teaches that the Bible makes Election contingent on faith in Jesus. In three words, Election By Faith. We also know that God knows the exact number of who will be numbered as the flock of His elect, and made fit for Heaven through His precious atonement. We call this the ‘foreknowledge’ of God. [I Peter 1:2]
________________________________________
I formerly said, 'If He is not willing that any sinner be lost [II Peter 3:9] one would believe that if it were totally in the Lord’s hands, all would be Effectually Called, as the Calvinist’s pretend to be factual, as to the calling of only the elect.'
________________________________________
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
quote:
________________________________________
If He is not willing that any sinner be lost [II Peter 3:9]...
________________________________________
That, what you say, is unscriptural is it not? The text clearly says, "He is patient with you." Who? Those that Peter is talking to and they are his congregation.
You must modify your universalist opinion because God clearly said that He would not give a sacrifice for Eli's sons thus making Him not willing to save them. They died in their sin without the atonement being offered or made for them.
I am saying that the English words ‘not willing’ is the Greek word, (boulomenos) meaning ‘to determine or purpose’ and the words in English ‘to us-ward is more like ‘any’. So Peter is saying that the Lord is patient with (humas) meaning you not determining or purposing that any should perish, but that all men {sinners} should come to repentance. This verse is in agreement with I Timothy 2:4 where Paul says, ‘Who wishes all men to be saved . . . ’ Check out the Greek word. Do not blame me for God’s universal call to salvation and eternal life, it is God who desires that all lost souls believe in Him. I or no other more Arminian kind of thinker believes in universalism or universal salvation. We know that all who remain in unbelief will end up in Hell. [John 3:18b,c,] I think you meant your word ‘universalist’ as to cast a bad shadow over my Biblical theology and perhaps an aspersion on my understanding of God.
________________________________________
We are told that 1/3rd of all angels fell from grace...
________________________________________
As to the archangel being cast out of Heaven turn to Isaiah 14:12-15 & Revelation 12:7-9. As to the 1/3rd angels being cast out of Heaven, it may be that I read that a theologian conjectured about the number. I do not know if I can place an actual number as to the angels who fell from His grace. Someone else on the Board may know this important detail.
Arminian theology teaches that the Bible makes Election contingent on faith in Jesus. In three words, Election By Faith. We also know that God knows the exact number of who will be numbered as the flock of His elect, and made fit for Heaven through His precious atonement. We call this the ‘foreknowledge’ of God. [I Peter 1:2]
Ray.
That covers the law.
Rom 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
That covers the gospel.
And God's word in general goes out to whoever He decides should hear it, " AM 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:" But when His word sallies forth it accomplishes what He desires it to accomplish, what He sent it for, to harden or soften, "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." And that is to the praise of His glory.
I'll put that into context. You said, "'Jesus has infinite love for all lost souls. On judgment day this will all change and the wicked will experience it. I might have added for clarity that His love will change toward the sinners and will become justice and judgment on their souls."
You then said that anyone who disagrees with you is a universalist. "If anyone disagrees with this above statement then they believe in universalism."
(Then Karl Barth entered the discussion for a reason that eludes me.)
Now if you recall you said that God's infinite love changes into, you don't say what but it ain't love anymore is it?
Infinite can't end can it? God can't change can He? Your statement was false was it not?
Are you making the point that the Devil was chucked out of Heaven when He fell? ('when iniquity was found in thee')
Why is it important? Since the Lord considered it unimportant, or deemed it unnecessary for us to know, why does it become important?
johnp.
How can it be a universal call? Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
That covers the law.
Rom 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
That covers the gospel.
And God's word in general goes out to whoever He decides should hear it, " AM 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:" But when His word sallies forth it accomplishes what He desires it to accomplish, what He sent it for, to harden or soften, "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." And that is to the praise of His glory.
I don't need to do that. Is that why you tried it on me? If anyone disagrees with this above statement then they believe in universalism.
I'll put that into context. You said, "'Jesus has infinite love for all lost souls. On judgment day this will all change and the wicked will experience it. I might have added for clarity that His love will change toward the sinners and will become justice and judgment on their souls."
You then said that anyone who disagrees with you is a universalist. "If anyone disagrees with this above statement then they believe in universalism."
(Then Karl Barth entered the discussion for a reason that eludes me.)
Now if you recall you said that God's infinite love changes into, you don't say what but it ain't love anymore is it?
Infinite can't end can it? God can't change can He? Your statement was false was it not?
You have added to scripture. Sinner is not part of that verse is it?
‘when iniquity was found in thee . . . ’ What bible are you quoting from? Are you quoting from either passage? Isaiah 14:12-15 & Revelation 12:7-9.
Are you making the point that the Devil was chucked out of Heaven when He fell? ('when iniquity was found in thee')
I'll set meself up for a fall. I would place a heavy weight bet on the fact that there is nobody in the world that can put a number to the number.
Why is it important? Since the Lord considered it unimportant, or deemed it unnecessary for us to know, why does it become important?
Do the elect always need to be made fit for Heaven? I think not. Not all the elect needed atoning for and not all the elect were atoned for I think.
johnp.
lets_reason_toghether
New Member
Ray Berrian,
you statement that "God's love will change" is very scary... there is no scriptural proof of that. That goes against the chracter of God. Then there is no basis to trust a God who's love is fickle and is only dependant on how we are to him. If we all were blessed to see how we are before a Holy God, we could actually see the how merciful He is on what His people say, tolerate, and accuse him of.
I will say this at least you see that God doesn't love those seperated from Him in everlasting fire. However it is not God's character to change.
I am not a universalist... In efforts to stay consitent if one beleives that God loves everyone that has come from Adam, then they either teach a fickle changelable God (as that quote suggest), or everyone is heavan.
But to be consistent and exalt Christ, then it is to teach God's loves His elect and they are in Christ and that is the only why God can love sinners. God can't love contrary to His nature.. So to say that God's love is apart from Christ is inconsistant with Scriptures..
Romasn 8... who can lay charge agaist God's elect for it is God that Justifieth... 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The love of God is in Christ.
So the one's he loves in the end, are the ones he loved in teh beginning. and those are the one's that are in Christ before the foundation of the world.
jesus Christ the same yeasterday, today and forever.
Jer 31:3 3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
I will say that I am not an Arminian and I am not a calvanist.
I will post an article that dscribes this from the aspect of the Doctrine of GOd's love.
Thanks.
May God bless
you statement that "God's love will change" is very scary... there is no scriptural proof of that. That goes against the chracter of God. Then there is no basis to trust a God who's love is fickle and is only dependant on how we are to him. If we all were blessed to see how we are before a Holy God, we could actually see the how merciful He is on what His people say, tolerate, and accuse him of.
I will say this at least you see that God doesn't love those seperated from Him in everlasting fire. However it is not God's character to change.
I am not a universalist... In efforts to stay consitent if one beleives that God loves everyone that has come from Adam, then they either teach a fickle changelable God (as that quote suggest), or everyone is heavan.
But to be consistent and exalt Christ, then it is to teach God's loves His elect and they are in Christ and that is the only why God can love sinners. God can't love contrary to His nature.. So to say that God's love is apart from Christ is inconsistant with Scriptures..
Romasn 8... who can lay charge agaist God's elect for it is God that Justifieth... 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The love of God is in Christ.
So the one's he loves in the end, are the ones he loved in teh beginning. and those are the one's that are in Christ before the foundation of the world.
jesus Christ the same yeasterday, today and forever.
Jer 31:3 3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
I will say that I am not an Arminian and I am not a calvanist.
I will post an article that dscribes this from the aspect of the Doctrine of GOd's love.
Thanks.
May God bless
Ray Berrian
New Member
Brother johnp,
I recognize that Calvinists believe that some will go to Hell and Heaven just as other Christians believe this. I have my serious doubts that a person who believes that all will be saved are even Christian. Do you agree that all who think everyone will be saved are Universalists?"
________________________________________
The O.T. says, ‘when iniquity was found in thee . . . ’ It is at this point that the Godhead threw this lofty angel out of Heaven because he tried to take over the authority of Heaven itself.
________________________________________
‘when iniquity was found in thee . . . ’ What bible are you quoting from? Are you quoting from either passage? Isaiah 14:12-15 & Revelation 12:7-9.
Are you making the point that the Devil was chucked out of Heaven when He fell? ('when iniquity was found in thee')
I am using the KJV printed by A.J. Holman Company. If you search for this verse you will find it; at the moment I cannot give you this verse, but on my good name, ‘seek and ye shall find.’
________________________________________
As to the 1/3rd angels being cast out of Heaven, it may be that I read that a theologian conjectured about the number. I do not know if I can place an actual number as to the angels who fell from His grace. Someone else on the Board may know this important detail.
________________________________________
I said previously, we also know that God . . . .know umber of who will be numbered as the flock of His elect, and made fit for Heaven through His precious atonement. We call this the ‘foreknowledge’ of God. [I Peter 1:2]
I am looking for some verses that deal with those who never hear the Gospel. I keep losing the piece of paper in one of my books.
Will you now, PLEASE, repond the the Greek that I explained in II Peter 3:9. If the original languages were unimportant men who are training for ministry would not have to learn them. And even when we do not know them we should go to Greek commentators who explain the truth more fully.
I'll keep studying!
In verse 15 God talks about those who never saw the Law but obey God as well as they can without the Law. After all it is grace that saves a sinner, not the Law.
First of all, just because many have not heard the Gospel does not mean that God did not die for their sins. [I John 2:2]
The Prophet Amos was speaking of his era of time, first of all. I do, however, agree with you that there will be a famine for the Word in these end days before our Lord comes in the clouds.
I agree with your above paragraph except your Calvinism which must here and there toss in ‘hardening and softening.’ Sinners harden their own hearts toward the Lord; He does not need to help them in their downward loop.
Do you not agree that God loves sinners even more than pastor’s have a concern for them? If He loves them in that which we call time; we also understand that His love will be turned into wrath, when whoever He says are the lost are cast into the Lake of Fire.
I recognize that Calvinists believe that some will go to Hell and Heaven just as other Christians believe this. I have my serious doubts that a person who believes that all will be saved are even Christian. Do you agree that all who think everyone will be saved are Universalists?"
I meant that God’s great and unsearchable love, through His atonement, has reached to the isles of the sea and into every nation. Strictly speaking, I know that infinity means never ending; that is a simple truth.
When Peter writes this verse nine he speaks of those who ‘perish.’ This implies people who are sinners. You and I are not permitted to want to put in extra words, like your word, ‘sinner.’
________________________________________
The O.T. says, ‘when iniquity was found in thee . . . ’ It is at this point that the Godhead threw this lofty angel out of Heaven because he tried to take over the authority of Heaven itself.
________________________________________
‘when iniquity was found in thee . . . ’ What bible are you quoting from? Are you quoting from either passage? Isaiah 14:12-15 & Revelation 12:7-9.
Are you making the point that the Devil was chucked out of Heaven when He fell? ('when iniquity was found in thee')
I am using the KJV printed by A.J. Holman Company. If you search for this verse you will find it; at the moment I cannot give you this verse, but on my good name, ‘seek and ye shall find.’
________________________________________
As to the 1/3rd angels being cast out of Heaven, it may be that I read that a theologian conjectured about the number. I do not know if I can place an actual number as to the angels who fell from His grace. Someone else on the Board may know this important detail.
________________________________________
The number is probably not all that important. Just as long as Christians know that the archangel fell and was cast out of the Heavenly throne room of God above. This fallen angel fell before the creation of the world.
I said previously, we also know that God . . . .know umber of who will be numbered as the flock of His elect, and made fit for Heaven through His precious atonement. We call this the ‘foreknowledge’ of God. [I Peter 1:2]
All saved persons are the elect and are made perfect in the sight of God through the blood and righteousness of Christ.
I am looking for some verses that deal with those who never hear the Gospel. I keep losing the piece of paper in one of my books.
Will you now, PLEASE, repond the the Greek that I explained in II Peter 3:9. If the original languages were unimportant men who are training for ministry would not have to learn them. And even when we do not know them we should go to Greek commentators who explain the truth more fully.
I'll keep studying!
GeneMBridges
New Member
I agree that God can not create fresh evil in the heart of sinners. That is against His nature.
However, who hardened Pharaoh's heart? The implication from Scripture is that God will do such things for some purpose. Their wickedness, which is already in them, is confirmed, not by God creating fresh evil, but because God holds back His restraint of evil in that particular person's heart. Some say that God simply strengthened Pharaoh's heart towards its natural tendency. Others maintain that God actively hardened his the heart. Whichever the case, Pharaoh rejected the true and living God and God used him for His own purpose.
No I don't. It does not become a shepherd to love a wolf.
God loves the sheep, that is why they are safe. He hates sinners. Pastors must protect the flock.
We are to call the elect and keep them safe. We are to love our brothers and seek their comfort. This extends to all men but we ain't God.
We are to love God with all our hearts, from the overflow comes love for others.
He calls it time as well. He knows it as today, now.
If love can ever turn to wrath then love does not mean love. Love never fails. Can't you understand that? 1 Cor 13:4-8 is not about us but about Him.
There are a number of things it can mean. One is, a member of a Christian denomination founded in America in the 18th century and holding the view that all men will be ultimately saved.
Or it can mean one who regards or acts with regard to the whole. Which comes as a surprise. Maybe we are all universalists.
Or it can be applied to someone who thinks he knows everything. Which comes as a surprise. Maybe we are all universalists.HaHa.
Ok. But God love is infinite. He cannot change. If He loves then He loves like that. If He hates then He hates like that.
...like your word, ‘sinner. Have you worded it wrong? It was not my word 'sinner' but yours.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
He is patient. He puts up with those He hates and who hate Him so that He can collect the sheep. There is more to come. When there are no more to come He will.
All saved persons are the elect but not all the elect were atoned for.
1TI 5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
Why have the angels been left out of the discussion on sinners? Since as you and others have said, "God loves sinners." They are sinners and not loved at all. There was no sacrifice for them. The atonement then is limited again to 'not all sinners'.
Nuances are great. We should ensure that we do not go to find a different meaning other than the one the translators have used unless we are authorised and trained.
Doesn't make any difference to the meaning. If you believe He means all and everyone everborn then, 'us-ward' could mean all and every man as much as 'any man' can.
But it is late. If that is not good enough let me know.
johnp.
Hello GeneMBridges.
God said in Exodus that He would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not...4:21. This would have caused the man to commit fresh evil, fresh evil caused by God as the primary cause no?
He used Pharaoh specifically to show us His total domination over us.
His end is to reveal His glory and the means He employs in doing so are not questionable by us. The end justifies the means. I can't see any other way round it.
johnp.
I think this is a difficult area. I have heard that God is not the author of sin but I do not see this stated in scripture. With Pharaoh, his heart was already hard. All men's hearts are. As you say we are held back by Him and we are not as bad as we can be.
God said in Exodus that He would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not...4:21. This would have caused the man to commit fresh evil, fresh evil caused by God as the primary cause no?
He used Pharaoh specifically to show us His total domination over us.
His end is to reveal His glory and the means He employs in doing so are not questionable by us. The end justifies the means. I can't see any other way round it.
johnp.
Ray Berrian
New Member
lets_reason_toghether,
You also said,
Yes, I agree with you that we are blessed because He has been merciful toward His people. I believe Titus 3:5 indicates this.
The fact that His love toward the sinner is not forever, should be an incentive to us to witness to those who are lost. Hell is but two breaths away for those who are not in Christ.
Jesus love will always continue toward His born of the Spirit people. On the other hand, Christ’s love for sinners is patient but He through His action at the Great White Throne Judgment will show His real wrath toward the lost. I do not think we would call putting sinners in the Lake of Fire is being a loving deed. But it does portray the reality of His Attributes of justice and wrath. As you say above, it should be terrifying to saints and sinners, more especially to willful sinners. We are saved from Hell and God through Paul says, to the brethren, that ‘ . . . there is therefore, now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.’ The second phrase of Romans 8:1 is not in the original manuscripts. In other words, it was added by the translators.
You also said,
God’s love is never fickle and He is patient [II Peter 3:9] until the last day when He will function as a wrathful judge against sinners. God relates or demonstrates different attributes in particular situations. As I said before He always loves His children though His love may take on the form of discipline or chastisement. But to the lost that love one day will turn into justice and wrath, either in the hour of death or at the final judgment day. If His love never changed then He in the end would save all human beings and take them to Heaven.
Yes, I agree with you that we are blessed because He has been merciful toward His people. I believe Titus 3:5 indicates this.
The fact that His love toward the sinner is not forever, should be an incentive to us to witness to those who are lost. Hell is but two breaths away for those who are not in Christ.