Calvinists, help me out here...

[Wes Outwest]

Jesus disagrees with you rc!

Jesus said whosever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life! The Standard is man believing in God! Those who do get saved, those who don't get cast into the lake of fire.

THAT'S A FACT, JACK!

 

[rc]

That's substancial to the formal though Wes. John 3.16 is factual... All those who have hair, are not bald. All those who have a driver's liscence can drive... All those who believe will not perish... It doesn't say ANYTHING about the FORMAL issue that you can't seem to understand. Man does not SEEK after GOD. Do you think that is a lie? You must be born again to SEE the kingdom of God. That's the whole point! Before you choose the good you have to have a DESIRE to choose it! BUT NO MAN DESIRES GOOD but seeks evil continually... Christ was just saying what any good reformer would say...The spirit must change you so you will DESIRE (free will) the kingdom.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Do you think that is a lie? You must be born again to SEE the kingdom of God. That's the whole point! Before you choose the good you have to have a DESIRE to choose it! BUT NO MAN DESIRES GOOD but seeks evil continually... Christ was just saying what any good reformer would say...The spirit must change you so you will DESIRE (free will) the kingdom.

Do you have to "see the kingdom of God" to seek the kingdom of God? If you are stalled on the highway, do you have to see a towtruck before you call for one? If you are suddenly sick, do you have to "see a doctor" before you seek one?
Oh foolish thought!

Look rc, when you are in trouble you do not have to be changed before you seek help! All you have to do is see that you're in trouble and if you cannot figure a way out of trouble yourself, YOU call for help! God is waiting to hear our call!

NO, Jesus is telling Nicodemus, and thanks to John the rest of us, that if you hear of or about the the Son of God, and believe, even on his name, that you will not perish but instead have everlasting life! If you believe, means today that you read about, listen to words about, see messages about the Son of God, and make a decision in your own spirit to believe in the Son of God, YOU will not die but rather have everlasting life, so long as you continue to believe in Him. It is that belief in Him that changes your spirit into a believing spirit, The Holy Spirit abides with the believing spirit, and finds a "home", a place of comfort so to speak, in that believing spirit, and begins a work in that believing spirit that transforms it. But the hearing comes first, the believing second, the transforming third.

Believe it or not!

 

[rc]

To bad Arminians have to use analogy to explain their view... wonder why... Can't find it in the Bible !

when you are in trouble you do not have to be changed before you seek help ...

WES THATS THE WHOLE POINT !! Man in his natural state DOESN'T SEE HIMSELF AS SICK!!!!!!!! Do you when your feeling in the peak of health go struggling looking for a Dr. ? Or when your Car is running perfect to you go after every tow truck? .... Why ? YOU don't need one! You won't DESIRE one ! You need to SEE that you are sick when you think you are healthy... GOD OPENS UP YOUR EYES... that's regeneration my freind. And I can use nothing but Bible verses for that. Enough with the elementary analogies which just muddy waters with confusion.
1 Peter 1:3 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, HE HAS CAUSED us to be born again...

 

[Wes Outwest]

rc,
There you go, Labeling with a name that I have no kinship with. I have not, to the best of my knowledge read a single article or book or any text attributed to Arminius! Therefore, I AM NOT AN ARMINIAN! Furthermore, with all of my bible reading, I have never found that name in Scripture, so there is no scripture to give you relative to Arminian views.

rc, henceforth, Call me Christian! Not Arminian-Christian! Not Calvinist-Christian, and Not Anything Hyphen Christian!

You can call me Christian that disagrees with rc, if you'd like, because truly I do!

 

[tyndale1946]

Standards!... What standards?... Does that sound like the definition of grace?... Unmerited favor bestowed upon an unworthy subject!... God reached down and saved us by Jesus Christ reaching up and declaring "IT IS FINISHED!" on a bloody cross. His death and resurection spanned the chasm of hell where we were headed. Christ made the choice for us not us for him... Eternal life is a gift not a chance or choice!... Whom shall we send who will go for us?... Here am I!... Send me!... Brother Glen

 

[Wes Outwest]

When Christ declared "it is finished", he couldn't reach! His hands were outstretched from the side and nailed to a wooden cross.

His declaration, "It is Finished", says the Work of God for man's salvation is FINISHED! It is now up to man to believe or not believe. The choice is Yours. Was the one who's flesh was on that cross God the Son? The Christ? It's up to you to determine for yourself what is true. What you determine establishes your condition of faith or the lack thereof.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Wes, Outwest:

And the reason you can make that statement is because of your low view of God and what Christ did through the shedding of His blood. Christ only obtained a chance to a slavation you might have never had the "chance" to take part in...How pathetic is that?!? When He cried, "It is finished!" He meant exactly that..."That of all that God hath given me, I should lose NOTHING!" (John 6.37) GLORY TO GOD.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
Wes, Outwest:

And the reason you can make that statement is because of your low view of God and what Christ did through the shedding of His blood. Christ only obtained a chance to a slavation you might have never had the "chance" to take part in...How pathetic is that?!? When He cried, "It is finished!" He meant exactly that..."That of all that God hath given me, I should lose NOTHING!" (John 6.37) GLORY TO GOD.

Interesting, but wrong perspective you have of "It is finished".

Don't be so quick to judge my view of God. You are wrong to do so! I do not read into scripture that which is not there!

If the Christ had not died on the cross, NO MAN could have everlasting life. The penalty of sin, right up to Jesus' last breath, was death for ALL mankind in ALL times. The very next instant that Penalty was marked "PAID IN FULL" for All mankind. Making that Payment removed sins'penalty from All mankind in All times, and it was the last work of God for the Salvation of mankind.

NOW, no man dies because of sin, but only because of lack of faith in God! "...Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Life that was NOT possible for man before Jesus died, but which is freely given to every human who believes in Jesus, the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD.

The works performed prior to Jesus final work of the Fathers redemption plan, the cross, were all aimed at establishing the Work of the Father which is that We believe in His Only Begotten Son. Jesus who is God the Son, Taught 12 men whom the Father had given to Jesus. They are the ones given who were taught by God, they are the elect of God! It is through their teachings that the rest of us have come to believe in God. It is only when we believe that we are redeemed, and it is then that the Holy Spirit indwells the believer making him "an elect of God". The scriptural support for my position is John 17 1-26 in my prior post this topic.

 

[rc]

Wes,
Your sotierology is so fragmented. If I bought a slave he's mine, I purchased him. Christ purchased us with His sacrifice, that was the price. The slave doesn't CHOOSE the one who buys him and doesn't decide if he will work for him either! And if I pay the price for the slave, the auctioneer will not then ask the slave to pay the same price again after I've paid it!

Tetelisti "It is finished" was a seal that was used to literally "SEAL" a deal. It meant that the price was purchased, or paid in full. This stamp was in wax and put on the invoice. . He paid for the salvation of the elect. He didn't pay for something that He couldn't get (the unregenerate)

Salvation is of the Lord... NOT, the possibility of salvation is of the Lord.

 

[Kiffen]

His declaration, "It is Finished", says the Work of God for man's salvation is FINISHED! It is now up to man to believe or not believe. The choice is Yours. Was the one who's flesh was on that cross God the Son? The Christ? It's up to you to determine for yourself what is true. What you determine establishes your condition of faith or the lack thereof.

The problem with your view is that you make Salvation a 50/50 deal. God did his part, now it's up to me to do my part or cast my vote.

The truth is no one can believe without the Holy Spirit regenerating them (Titus 3:5) and it is by GRACE we are saved and it is God's grace that gives us the Faith.(Eph. 2:8-10) If it was up to us, none would be saved for humanity has a self will not a Free will.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Kiffen;

The problem with your view is that you make Salvation a 50/50 deal. God did his part, now it's up to me to do my part or cast my vote.

Then you absolutely do not believe that Salvation is a relationship with the Son of God. How is it we can be called friends of the Christ and not have a relationship?.
Personally I admit that God first chose me. I admit that it is because of His work that I believe through the hearing of the word. Even my trust is a result of these works of God and even though with all this being of God I still must be willing to submit or surrender to Him.

The truth is no one can believe without the Holy Spirit regenerating them (Titus 3:5) and it is by GRACE we are saved and it is God's grace that gives us the Faith.(Eph. 2:8-10) If it was up to us, none would be saved for humanity has a self will not a Free will.

If this is truth as you calim then why don't these scriptures you have presented as proof back up your claim?
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
This doesn't say we have to be regenerated first in order to believe.
Then you present these to prove that Faith is a gift of God.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The first verse says;" For by grace are ye saved through faith;" which disproves your theory that we must be regenerated first. It is clearly saying that if we have grace it is because it was given to us as a result of the faith that we must have first. This is why it says through faith. Then it says;"it is the gift of God:" This verse is not talking about faith but being saved by grace and grace is the gift it is referring to. We receive Faith by hearing the word of the Lord. It isn't just handed out.
It seems that Calvinist believe in fate making them fatalist. Life is what we make to be. This is why some of us strive so hard to get it right.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[Kiffen]

Then you absolutely do not believe that Salvation is a relationship with the Son of God. How is it we can be called friends of the Christ and not have a relationship?.

What in the World are you talking about?

Personally I admit that God first chose me. I admit that it is because of His work that I believe through the hearing of the word. Even my trust is a result of these works of God and even though with all this being of God I still must be willing to submit or surrender to Him.

And why did you surrender? Was it you seeking Jesus through a so called Free will? or was it that it was He who sought and brought You to Himself and freed you from your self will and bondage?

If this is truth as you calim then why don't these scriptures you have presented as proof back up your claim?
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Actually it does. It is by the washing of regeneration that caused or enabled you to believe Titus 3:5 He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,(NIV)

The first verse says;" For by grace are ye saved through faith;" which disproves your theory that we must be regenerated first. It is clearly saying that if we have grace it is because it was given to us as a result of the faith that we must have first.

Wrong, It actually says we have FAITH because of God's GRACE. We are saved by GRACE. FAITH is the instrument of God's Grace that brings us to salvation. Our Faith comes from God's Grace

It seems that Calvinist believe in fate making them fatalist. Life is what we make to be. This is why some of us strive so hard to get it right.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;

Anyone who denies fate, denies the Sovereignty of God. That is not fatalism.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Kiffen;

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you absolutely do not believe that Salvation is a relationship with the Son of God. How is it we can be called friends of the Christ and not have a relationship?.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What in the World are you talking about?

Friends have a friendly relationship don't they? Christ called us friends;
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Are we not friends with Christ?

And why did you surrender?

Simply because I came to Love Christ because He first Loved me and He proved it by His sacrifice.

Was it you seeking Jesus through a so called Free will?

Why yes you got it

or was it that it was He who sought and brought You to Himself and freed you from your self will and bondage?

There is no need to be enabled to choose Him. I've been free to do so ever since I could understand language. Haven't you? Maybe you could show just where the word says a man lost his ability to respond to the call or the gospel.

Actually it does. It is by the washing of regeneration that caused or enabled you to believe Titus 3:5 He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,(NIV)

The NIV is not God's word but what men think his word says. Absolutely one of the worst translations on the market. This is only part of your problems.

Wrong, It actually says we have FAITH because of God's GRACE. We are saved by GRACE.

Then you contradict yourself in the same paragraph;

FAITH is the instrument of God's Grace that brings us to salvation.

Isn't God's grace the favor of Salvation?, because regeneration is Salvation. You have seperated the fact of Salvation, from Grace. Grace is the favor of Salvation. How can you seperate the two?

Anyone who denies fate, denies the Sovereignty of God. That is not fatalism.

Anyone who believes that we are saved before faith has fallen victim to the doctrines of men. Why can't you trust God alone instead of taking the doctrines of men over God's doctrine?
The Bible say very plainly not to trust men but to place your trust in God. PS. 118:8
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[rc]

ILL ... are you a KJ only? ... Your not knowing Greek and Hebrew and linguistics knowledge probably makes you lean towards that... leaning on the teachings of man are you? To tell you what is a proper translation or not? ... Being alittle hypocritical are we?

 

[Wes Outwest]

rc,
You know nothing of attitude. If you buy a slave and that slave does not like your treatment, you will not, without beating the slave into submission, get your money's worth and even beating the slave to death may not work. You may be able to buy a human's body, but you cannot buy his/her respect and devotion...YOU MUST EARN THAT, and he/she makes the choice as to whether or not you have earned it! There is a whole lot more to a relationship than buying flesh.

What you are describing is the 'Prostitute to John' relationship! And that is not what scriptures describe for the Bridegroom and Bride.

 

[rc]

Wes.... nice try, still missing the point. If I buy a slave he DOESNT HAVE A CHOICE !

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
Wes.... nice try, still missing the point. If I buy a slave he DOESNT HAVE A CHOICE !

ignorant response!

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Rc;
You might just be a slave. Although not to Christ.
You see even Christ didn't call us slaves but He called us friends.
Joh 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[rc]

Wow wes... great come back... I guess that's about as good as you can do since you don't have scripture ...
Your a slave to sin... like it say's in John 8:33 but then the Arminianist answer Jesus We were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Then Jesus said why they CANT understand what He is saying: John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
Why? The TRUE attitude Wes is that the natural man LOVES to be a slave to sin and HATES God. And unless God changes their heart they will forever hate Him... thus NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD... still haven't answered that one.