Calvinists, help me out here...

[ILUVLIGHT]

RC;
It's intresting that in the Greek a slave can either be a voluntary slave or servant or an involuntary one.
G1401
δοῦλος
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.

Not all slaves are servants and not all servants are slaves.

May Christ shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
Wow wes... great come back... I guess that's about as good as you can do since you don't have scripture ...
Your a slave to sin... like it say's in John 8:33 but then the Arminianist answer Jesus We were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

I suppose you'd like to boast that your previous response to me was a "bullseye"?

Then Jesus said why they CANT understand what He is saying: John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
Why? The TRUE attitude Wes is that the natural man LOVES to be a slave to sin and HATES God. And unless God changes their heart they will forever hate Him... thus NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD... still haven't answered that one.

Man hates what man does not understand!

rc, if the natural man "loves to be a slave...." isn't love a matter of attitude? I can demonstrate to you that love is not a commodity that can be transferred from one to another, so it must be something that is "possessed by" the one about somthing or someone else.

Jesus clearly explains that we are bound to sin because we do not "know" there is a better way, and do not have the knowledge of how to control ourselves. Scriptures tell us that God says, "For lack of knowledge, MY people perish" now that could mean that the jews are ignorant of knowledge, as the Jews are God's chosen race. Or it could mean that Mankind does not have the knowledge by which to control itself, resulting in its headlong rush into destruction. Either way, our destruction comes because we do not have sufficient knowledge of God, and it is KNOWLEDGE of God that causes us to HAVE FAITH IN GOD. Jesus was freely giving that knowledge to the Jews, who were so "well trained" in religion that they could not "hear" the words of Jesus who is the author of life itself. "He came unto his own, and his own received him not".

 

[rc]

They did not BELIEVE because they WERE NOT HIS SHEEP!

 

[Wes Outwest]

So, who do you say are Jesus's Sheep?

Who were Jesus's Sheep in that day?

 

[Skandelon]

The first fold of sheep were the remnant Jesus chose from Israel who were not judicially hardened in their rebellion, but instead were called to take the message of redemption to the world

The second fold of sheep were those who believed through the first fold's message. (primarily the Gentiles)

 

[Wes Outwest]

That process continues today while God is in His state of Grace toward mankind, especially the Jews. Everyone who believes in Jesus, the Son of God, as the result of the teachings of the Apostles becomes a sheep in the Fold of the Good Shepherd, Jesus. See John 17.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

The House of Eli rejected God.

They did.

Atonement indeed covers and covered ALL Sin, including the sins of Eli's house.

Then why does Eli get the message that no atonement will be made for his house unless atonement is a personal thing?
`The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' The guilt will not be atoned! Guilt is personal is it not?

Atonement indeed covers and covered ALL Sin, including the sins of Eli's house.

`The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' Can you have your sins atoned for and still be guilty of them? That is what you say.

Atonement indeed covers and covered ALL Sin, including the sins of Eli's house.

And you have the nerve to say we distort! `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' What crime are they guilty of Wes? Is unbelief a crime? Then it is sin and atoned for. I'm dead interested in how you try to extricate yourself from this pit.
Since Jesus atoned for all sin as you say then why have Eli's house still got guilt?

You however, continue to FAIL to understand that Atonement is for sin and not for people!

FAIL to understand I fail to accept please if you do not mind.

Provide a reference were one person, the person not his deeds, is atoned for.

...The Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20.

Do be careful because you must realize that God is no respecter of man, and that by atoning for any man makes God a respecter of that man.

No it doesn't. Why should it? His choice on whom to choose was not based in anyway on the one so chosen. How can the Lord God Almighty respect anything in man. That's your error. Selfrighteousness.

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

I'm not sure if that answer from me above is in the right thread?
Have you edited out the question or have I made an error?

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

`The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' Can you have your sins atoned for and still be guilty of them? That is what you say.

Well of course you can! Atonement IS NOT FORGIVENESS OF SIN!

Atonement is payment for, not forgiveness of sin!

1 John 19,10, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness". Now for what reason would the Apostle John say this if Atonement is forgiveness of Sin?

Yes, we remain guilty of sin, but we do not have to pay the penalty of sin because Jesus did that for us!

Eli's House rejected God! That is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the Unforgiveable sin. God does not save those who reject HIM!

You do not go out our your way to do something for those who reject you! Why do you insist that God must do so?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Johnp said,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Provide a reference were one person, the person not his deeds, is atoned for.

The Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20.</font>[/QUOTE]Gal 2:20. "and yet I am alive; yet it is no longer I, but Christ living in me. The life that I am now living, subject to the limitation of human nature, I am living in faith, faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me."

Seems to me that Paul is talking about life that God the Son enabled by removing the penalty of sin. Paul is simply acknowledging what we all must acknowledge. Faith is a personally and individually unique thing that one sees from within one's self. When one sees faith in the way that Paul is expressing it one personalizes the one who brought us to it. "Jesus died for me" is acknowledging that I could not have everlasting life if He had not removed the penalty of sin!

Now, care to name one person by name that atonement alone saved?

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You however, continue to FAIL to understand that Atonement is for sin and not for people!

FAIL to understand I fail to accept please if you do not mind.</font>[/QUOTE]You fail to accept because you fail to understand! Otherwise you are no better off than Eli's house!

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

Now, care to name one person by name that atonement alone saved?

John Parsons in Nottingham England.

Any body else like to join in?

johnp.

 

[rc]

His blood payed for my sin. Read Hebrews... He didn't die for those who die in unbelief. Christ died for HIS sheep... He died for His church... God would be unjust to sentence someone to a punishment that was already paid for.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Wes.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now, care to name one person by name that atonement alone saved?

John Parsons in Nottingham England.

Any body else like to join in?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]I truly hope that you are not relying on atonement to save you. If you are your belief is NOT FOUNDED in Scripture.

 

[Wes Outwest]

"His blood paid for ALL the sins of the World!" Not just for yours. However, it is good that you perceive it that way, because you have personalized your faith in Jesus.

rc, your statement "God would be unjust to sentence someone to a punishment that was already paid for." speaks volumes of truth. And that is the reason God sent his only Son, manifest in the flesh, to us to be the Sacrificial Lamb that taketh away the sins of the world.

God, in so doing, has changed our sins from a death penalty into "deeds" that we do that will be judged according to their merit. Our deeds of sin will be tested as if by fire, and the result of those sins is worthless ashes. The good that we do will come through the test by fire in the manner that gold, silver, and precious stones come through fire. Gold and silver are purified by fire and Precious stones are not effected by fire.

But we ourselves will not be so tested, but believers will pass from natural death into everlasting life, and unbelievers whose names are not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. The book of life entries are based on faith alone.

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

I truly hope that you are not relying on atonement to save you. If you are your belief is NOT FOUNDED in Scripture.

I am saved I have no need to rely on anything like you do but I know me and God are friends due to a sacrifice made on my behalf that reconciled Him to me and me to Him. That sacrifice was a sacrifice of atonement and you should really learn the meaning of the sacrifice of atonement. It reconciles those it is made for. Those who have no sacrifice of atonement made for them are never able to see life but remain at emnity with God and God with them.
But thank you for the warning. The warning is wasted on me because my everlasting security is made secure by Jesus. I am saved by grace. He told me personally and continues to be with me. I know Him and He knows me. I hear His voice and speak His words.

"His blood paid for ALL the sins of the World!" Not just for yours.

Impossible. People still die and that is the wages of sin and nothing else. You have tried and failed to divide the word of God in that you try to divide death which is indivisible. Touch that fruit and you will die.
2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
What's the punishment for Wes if Jesus paid the price for those? What's the judgement for Wes is Jesus paid the price?

However, it is good that you perceive it that way, because you have personalized your faith in Jesus.

Is this to me? That is all faith can be Wes. One to one and one to One.
MT 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Do you know Him Wes? I don't mean do you know about Him but do you know Him? Have you met with Him? Does He know you? Not does He know about you but does He know you?

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Impossible. People still die and that is the wages of sin and nothing else. You have tried and failed to divide the word of God in that you try to divide death which is indivisible.

This just shows your limited understanding of the truth about death! The death from the natural realm, is merely the separation of the human spirit from human flesh. It is not the final death.

[Heb 9:27] Since human beings die only once, after which comes judgement, so Christ too, having offered himself only once to bear the sin of many, will manifest himself a second time, sin being no more, to those who are waiting for him, to bring them salvation.

Since all humans die once, how is it that one who is dead can be judged? So death of the flesh is not death of the spirit. We are spirits temporarily held captive to flesh, but when that flesh dies, our spirits, free from the flesh, go to be judged. There are two judgments, one of our deeds which all men face, the other judgment is of those lacking faith in Jesus the penalty for which is the second death. Those who have faith in Jesus are not judged!

As for 2 Peter 2:9, you'd better take in the whole context!

[2 Pet 2:9,11] All this shows that the Lord is well able to rescue the good from their trials, and hold the wicked for their punishment until the Day of Judgement, especially those who follow the desires of their corrupt human nature and have no respect for the Lord's authority. Such self-willed people with no reverence are not afraid of offending against the glorious ones, but the angels in their greater strength and power make no complaint or accusation against them in the Lord's presence.

As you can see, Peter is saying that the LORD is well able to keep the righteous from their trials, and to hold the wicked for their punishment, come judgement day. Like Jesus said in,

John 3:18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son.

 

[rc]

What will the unbelievers penalty be Wes? What sin will they "PAY" for? ... If Jesus payed for it already, they are clean.... The judge can't find anybody guilty if the penalty has been paid for already ! Jesus said He died for the MANY... not all... thanks for bringing up Hebrews... Jesus will perfectly save and will do perfectly what He intended... to save. NOT to make people SAVABLE...

 

[Wes Outwest]

RC,
Unbelievers do not pay for sins any more than believers pay for sins. Because Jesus' atonement for sin Paid for ALL sin, in ALL times, ONCE for ALL! NO MAN DIES FOR SINNING!

Salvation, which only comes to believers, is a free gift of God to those who have faith in Him, but especially faith in His Son, the Atoner of sin! Those who have faith in God do in truth work very hard to not sin because by our sinning we dishonor the one who died to atone for our sin. But "if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness", 1 John 1:9,10.

Let me refer you to Revelation 20, especially 14 and 15. Whoever's name is not found in the book of Life is cast into the lake of fire. Not for sins, but for lack of faith. Unbelievers lack faith, and it is that condition alone that causes them to be cast into the lake of fire!

 

[rc]

Hmmm... "For the wages of "lack of faith" is death, but the gift of God is eternal life" ... what version is that? ...