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Calvinists, help me out here...
- Thread starter Skandelon
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Wes Outwest
New Member
Just what wage would there be for something that has already been paid? All sin was atoned for by the Christ, ONCE for ALL!
If you go before the magistrate to pay a fine, and someone has already paid that fine (atoned for your fine in your place), what is left for you to pay?
There is no such thing as "wager for lack of faith", There is a judgment of your faith condition. If you have faith in God, God saves you. If you do not, God carries out his judgment against you for not having faith in Him, and that judgment is the second death or, as I see it, the death of human spirit!
If you do not have faith God doesn't want you around!
Wes.... The OBJECT of that verse is not FAITH. THAT"S THE POINT! Paul is saying that the wage of SIN is death... And guess what ? IT WAS NOT paid for by Christ for those who He did not ransom. THAT'S THE POINT ! Paul is telling you that the death STILL HAS TO BE PAYED FOR BECAUSE OF SIN... SIN, SIN, SIN !!!!!!! Thus , it wasn't PAID FOR by Christ!! Or else Paul would have to say what I stated on my last post, the wages of "lack of faith" is death, but you didn't get it... you should though.. not to hard. Christ DID pay for sin, for those who He chose to save. I lay down my life for MY sheep.
The original poster said... "This appears to me to be a view of double-predestination held by Hyper-Calvinists, which Calvinistic scholars such as Piper, Sproul and MacArthur would denounce. Am I wrong?"
Hyper-Calvinists are regular Calvinists and vice-verse. All Calvinists believe God decreed the eternal fate of all of us in eternity past. What an unjust 'thought', not God's thought I'm sure. Calvinists don't like taking responsibility for such a thing so they say God did it, or make up a story about how God didn't condemn people before they were born, he just doesn't give them the same perk (salvation) he gives others. Silly statements can't really be reasoned with.
As for Christ dying for all, that's what the Bible says and I'm a believer. (Believe it or not...the Bible) Calvinists spend an awful lot of time explaining what the Bible doesn't say. People would do well to just take God at 'his word.'
Hyper-Calvinists are regular Calvinists and vice-verse. All Calvinists believe God decreed the eternal fate of all of us in eternity past. What an unjust 'thought', not God's thought I'm sure. Calvinists don't like taking responsibility for such a thing so they say God did it, or make up a story about how God didn't condemn people before they were born, he just doesn't give them the same perk (salvation) he gives others. Silly statements can't really be reasoned with.
As for Christ dying for all, that's what the Bible says and I'm a believer. (Believe it or not...the Bible) Calvinists spend an awful lot of time explaining what the Bible doesn't say. People would do well to just take God at 'his word.'
Ben Elohim
New Member
Surely you can see bbmember that the word Johannine word "world" in these verses can only possibly refer to the elect.
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the elect!
For God sent the Son into the elect, not to condemn the elect, but that the elect might be saved through him.
We know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of all the elect.
So the word "world" necessarily and definitely refers to "the elect" in these verses because of the doctrine of Limited Atonement which we use to interpret these verses. Follow me? However, when you come to the following verses, please understand that the word "world" most definitely means the direct oppposite of your other definition and is a reference to "not the elect."
I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine.
So you can see that the word "world" means "the elect" where it refers to nice things God does but refers to a fallen realm when it is discussing bad things. It is quite easy really. All you have to do is define words however you like and you can make the Bible say pretty much anything you want. It is also good to search for a license from Scripture to define these words however you like. For example, just note that God loved the world but we should not love the world and use this personal confusion as a license to define the word "world" however you like.
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the elect!
For God sent the Son into the elect, not to condemn the elect, but that the elect might be saved through him.
We know that this is indeed the Savior of the elect.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of all the elect.
So you can see here the word "world" is a direct reference to "the elect." Now the following verses are most definitely a reference to "NOT the elect" and the definition of the word here is the direct opposite of those other verses and I am sure you will be able to see why.
I will no longer talk much with you, for the prince of the elect is coming. He has no power over me.
I am praying for them; I am not praying for the elect but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine
If the elect hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
So as you can see, the best way to define this word "world" is first look at your creed and see what definition best serves that god. Then go from there. Don't worry about how ridiculous it looks to define the word "world" variously like this in John. What is paramount here is that the doctrines of Calvinism are preserved.
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the elect!
For God sent the Son into the elect, not to condemn the elect, but that the elect might be saved through him.
We know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of all the elect.
So the word "world" necessarily and definitely refers to "the elect" in these verses because of the doctrine of Limited Atonement which we use to interpret these verses. Follow me? However, when you come to the following verses, please understand that the word "world" most definitely means the direct oppposite of your other definition and is a reference to "not the elect."
I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine.
So you can see that the word "world" means "the elect" where it refers to nice things God does but refers to a fallen realm when it is discussing bad things. It is quite easy really. All you have to do is define words however you like and you can make the Bible say pretty much anything you want. It is also good to search for a license from Scripture to define these words however you like. For example, just note that God loved the world but we should not love the world and use this personal confusion as a license to define the word "world" however you like.
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the elect!
For God sent the Son into the elect, not to condemn the elect, but that the elect might be saved through him.
We know that this is indeed the Savior of the elect.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of all the elect.
So you can see here the word "world" is a direct reference to "the elect." Now the following verses are most definitely a reference to "NOT the elect" and the definition of the word here is the direct opposite of those other verses and I am sure you will be able to see why.
I will no longer talk much with you, for the prince of the elect is coming. He has no power over me.
I am praying for them; I am not praying for the elect but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine
If the elect hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
So as you can see, the best way to define this word "world" is first look at your creed and see what definition best serves that god. Then go from there. Don't worry about how ridiculous it looks to define the word "world" variously like this in John. What is paramount here is that the doctrines of Calvinism are preserved.
Ben.
Your understanding of We know that this is indeed the Savior of the world. Will read, if we take some liberties, We know that this is indeed the Savior of the world even though He said He did not die for Eli's house!
Then Ben it was not for the whole of mankind was it? Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' " Good old Eli! 1 Sam 3:14.
johnp.
What does propitiation mean and what effect has it?
Your understanding of We know that this is indeed the Savior of the world. Will read, if we take some liberties, We know that this is indeed the Savior of the world even though He said He did not die for Eli's house!
Then Ben it was not for the whole of mankind was it? Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
Good old Eli! 1 Sam 3:14.johnp.
John,
Don't give meat to BB or Ben... they have to stay with their milk... They can't handle Greek, Hebrew, context or Hermeneutics, Exegesis... if they want to stay singing "Jesus Loves Me" with the rest of the chilren because "A Mighty Fortress" or "Be Thou My Vision" is to hard to understand, let them.
Don't give meat to BB or Ben... they have to stay with their milk... They can't handle Greek, Hebrew, context or Hermeneutics, Exegesis... if they want to stay singing "Jesus Loves Me" with the rest of the chilren because "A Mighty Fortress" or "Be Thou My Vision" is to hard to understand, let them.
Ben Elohim
New Member
rc: Hang around and you will eat your words rc. I am making a copy of this particular post of yours.
johnp: Yes salvation was for the whole of mankind and the whole world. You can't figure that out can you?
Let's say you want to use the ole Calvy contrivance of John 1:29 that goes like this:
"Well, this verse certainly does not mean the "whole world" in the sense of every person because Jesus is obviously not going to take away ALL the sins of every man because we know people are going to hell."
Do you realize how stupid this argument is? Do you johnp? Honestly now, do you?
Calvinists are so fixated on their bizarre notions of "the Atonement" that they cannot see the forest for the trees and how indeed Jesus will take away the sins of the world.
The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. (Matthew 13:41-43).
Let's get real people. Is your TULIP flower SOOOO important to you over and against the truth that you will resort to claiming that the word "world" in John means "the elect" in one spot and "definitely NOT the elect' in the next? Do you serve this flower to such a degree it is your god? Let's not be so lame. The Greek word kosmos is a word which refers to the created order. Where do you think we got the word cosmos for goodness sake!! It can be used with different connotations like any other word but that does not mean it has diametrically opposed definitions when the very same man uses the same word in the same Gospel. Get real. Get honest with yourself instead of deceiving yourselves. When they said in John, "the whole world has gone after him," we know this is hyperbole to indicate that entire creation follows him. And indeed, it is a play on words by John because Jesus is the WORD OF GOD by whom all things were created, the beginning point of the COSMOS. Of course the entire cosmos is going after him. All things are in the Word and through the Word and for the Word by whom the cosmos was created. He is indeed drawing all things to himself (12:32). He is not only the Alpha of creation but the Omega. Are you all so blind? There is no question all things will be subjected to him. The question is whether you will be able to stand the fire of his coming.
Get real and honest with yourselves. The word kosmos does not refer to "the elect" at John 1:29 and neither does it refer to the "non-elect" at John 17:9. How is it that you know so quickly what the word "world" means at John 17:9 but you go blind so quickly at John 1:29?
And get real that you are defining words however you need them to be defined just for the sake of your creed. Do you not realize that you could make the Bible say absolutely anything with this self-deception of defining words however you like? You know it, I know it, and God knows it. Do you think you are really going to get away with it before God? Everything will come to light.
johnp: Yes salvation was for the whole of mankind and the whole world. You can't figure that out can you?
Let's say you want to use the ole Calvy contrivance of John 1:29 that goes like this:
"Well, this verse certainly does not mean the "whole world" in the sense of every person because Jesus is obviously not going to take away ALL the sins of every man because we know people are going to hell."
Do you realize how stupid this argument is? Do you johnp? Honestly now, do you?
Calvinists are so fixated on their bizarre notions of "the Atonement" that they cannot see the forest for the trees and how indeed Jesus will take away the sins of the world.
The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. (Matthew 13:41-43).
Let's get real people. Is your TULIP flower SOOOO important to you over and against the truth that you will resort to claiming that the word "world" in John means "the elect" in one spot and "definitely NOT the elect' in the next? Do you serve this flower to such a degree it is your god? Let's not be so lame. The Greek word kosmos is a word which refers to the created order. Where do you think we got the word cosmos for goodness sake!! It can be used with different connotations like any other word but that does not mean it has diametrically opposed definitions when the very same man uses the same word in the same Gospel. Get real. Get honest with yourself instead of deceiving yourselves. When they said in John, "the whole world has gone after him," we know this is hyperbole to indicate that entire creation follows him. And indeed, it is a play on words by John because Jesus is the WORD OF GOD by whom all things were created, the beginning point of the COSMOS. Of course the entire cosmos is going after him. All things are in the Word and through the Word and for the Word by whom the cosmos was created. He is indeed drawing all things to himself (12:32). He is not only the Alpha of creation but the Omega. Are you all so blind? There is no question all things will be subjected to him. The question is whether you will be able to stand the fire of his coming.
Get real and honest with yourselves. The word kosmos does not refer to "the elect" at John 1:29 and neither does it refer to the "non-elect" at John 17:9. How is it that you know so quickly what the word "world" means at John 17:9 but you go blind so quickly at John 1:29?
And get real that you are defining words however you need them to be defined just for the sake of your creed. Do you not realize that you could make the Bible say absolutely anything with this self-deception of defining words however you like? You know it, I know it, and God knows it. Do you think you are really going to get away with it before God? Everything will come to light.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Hogwash rc!
The scriptures do not in any way limit God the Son's atonement for sin!
All sin has been atoned. For by one man, Adam, sin entered the world, by one man, Jesus, the penalty for sin was paid! Evenso, Atonement does not mean forgiven! It means that man is not held liable for sin because the penalty has been paid.
Adam is not responsible for every sin committed by man, but it was through Adam that sin entered the world. Before Adam there was no sin in the world.
Before Jesus there was no escape from the penalty of sin!
That, for which the penalty has been paid, is not again charged lest it place 'the pardoned' in double jeopardy. Scriptures tell us that Jesus' sacrifice was for the sake of SIN, and not for individuals. Therefore, Jesus' death on the cross could not be for only a select few. Atonement for Sin is just that Atonement for sin. All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God! The wages of sin is death, but the Gift of God, Jesus, is Everlasting life. God so loved the world that he GAVE as a gift, His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but HAVE everlasting life.
The Gift of God, TO THE WORLD THAT GOD SO LOVED, was Jesus, God's only begotten son. So that all who believe in Him can have everlasting life, because Jesus paid the penalty for sin! Thus making it possible for man to not face the wage of sin, but can through faith bypass the second death.
For by grace, God's gave His gift to the world, so that now ye are saved through faith, and not of yourselves it is the Gift of God, Not of works lest any man should boast.
No rc, Jesus did not die just for a few, He died to atone for all sin so that all mankind could through faith, have everlasting life!
Pull you head out of the Calvinite! There's no value in keeping it buried!
Ben.
I'm free. I'm not free 'if'. I'm free.
I spend my life in the knowledge of that not for that.
johnp.
No.
No I don't I see it as a thing that is obvious as a man. Logic goes that if a man takes another's punishment then the man whose punishment is taken by another no longer has punishment coming his way. That is simple. Jesus died for my sins and if you don't believe that it does not affect the fact that Jesus died fo my sins. If you don't believe that then Jesus did not die for your sins and you go to Hell.
Reconciles. It does not carry a potential it reconciles those it is made for. Go and find out what the sacrifice means.
All people are real.
That is not a question for me. I will not see the wrath of God because God took the wrath of God for me. I'm sitting pretty and waiting for my lover not my judge. I'm waiting for your judge not your lover. He don't scare me.
I'm not blind enough to think that Jesus took my punishment and that punishment will be visited on me. That is not to believe Jesus died for my sins in which case He would not have.
How about this for defining, Jesus died for my sins but I'd better watch out. Jesus died for my sins but I still go to Hell if I sin? What is that defining but redefining. Deal with that. He loved me and gave Himself for me. Why? Because He loved me with an everlasting love and everlasting love has a tendency to be everlasting.
What is selfdeception but sin. Jesus died for my sin.
I'm free. I'm not free 'if'. I'm free.I spend my life in the knowledge of that not for that.
Of course it will.
johnp.
Wes.
Sorry Wes this is not for your information just information. There is another in Isaiah.
ISA 22:12 The Lord, the LORD Almighty, called you on that day to weep and to wail, to tear out your hair and put on sackcloth. 13 But see, there is joy and revelry, slaughtering of cattle and killing of sheep, eating of meat and drinking of wine! "Let us eat and drink," you say, "for tomorrow we die!" 14 The LORD Almighty has revealed this in my hearing: "Till your dying day this sin will not be atoned for," says the Lord, the LORD Almighty.
That atonment is limited is scriptural.
johnp.
1 Sam 3:5 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
Sorry Wes this is not for your information just information. There is another in Isaiah.
ISA 22:12 The Lord, the LORD Almighty, called you on that day to weep and to wail, to tear out your hair and put on sackcloth. 13 But see, there is joy and revelry, slaughtering of cattle and killing of sheep, eating of meat and drinking of wine! "Let us eat and drink," you say, "for tomorrow we die!" 14 The LORD Almighty has revealed this in my hearing: "Till your dying day this sin will not be atoned for," says the Lord, the LORD Almighty.
That atonment is limited is scriptural.
johnp.
Matthew 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
It doesn't say He will make them SAVABLE ILL.
And look ... it says He will save HIS people frome their sins, not unbelief. It is for a specific people and it is accomplished completely. He SAVED HIS PEOPLE FROM THIER SIN.
VERY particular. His People and their sin and HE saved them, not put them in a condition to be saved.
Post Tenebras Lux
It doesn't say He will make them SAVABLE ILL.
And look ... it says He will save HIS people frome their sins, not unbelief. It is for a specific people and it is accomplished completely. He SAVED HIS PEOPLE FROM THIER SIN.
VERY particular. His People and their sin and HE saved them, not put them in a condition to be saved.
Post Tenebras Lux
Wes Outwest
New Member
Yes, Jesus will save his people....Who are his people? Whosoever believeth in Him! And Yes, because sin was atoned by Jesus, ALL the whosoever's can, through faith, be saved...in spite of their sins, because atonement paid the penalty for sin, sins are no longer held against man.
And because sins have been atoned, sins are not the cause of death for the unbeliever either...Lack of faith is the cause of their death! However, they go into the second death "with their sins not forgiven" because the did not have faith in the one who forgives sins, and therefore could not confess them!
There are two judgments, one for deeds; and sins are deeds in the same manner that good works are deeds. The other judgment has its basis in FAITH, whether or not one's name is written in the Book of life. Names can be added to the book of life and they can be blotted from the book of life! The book of Life is not where deeds are recorded, there are other books for that purpose. The book of life is where those who have faith in God are recorded.
Those who have faith in God, do not face the judgment of the second death because their names are FOUND written in the book of Life!
Now why do you want to make this so complicated?
And because sins have been atoned, sins are not the cause of death for the unbeliever either...Lack of faith is the cause of their death! However, they go into the second death "with their sins not forgiven" because the did not have faith in the one who forgives sins, and therefore could not confess them!
There are two judgments, one for deeds; and sins are deeds in the same manner that good works are deeds. The other judgment has its basis in FAITH, whether or not one's name is written in the Book of life. Names can be added to the book of life and they can be blotted from the book of life! The book of Life is not where deeds are recorded, there are other books for that purpose. The book of life is where those who have faith in God are recorded.
Those who have faith in God, do not face the judgment of the second death because their names are FOUND written in the book of Life!
Now why do you want to make this so complicated?
Wes Outwest
New Member
Hmmm..... Now that Sounds like a new Heresy! that would make Arminius blush
Did not Paul say he gloried in only the cross? What are we to rely on other than Christ and his atonement? Modern day evangelicals seem to be reembracing Pelagius if this is espoused! </font>[/QUOTE]Do you think that Christ and the Cross are all that is necessary for our salvation? That is UNIVERSALISM! "Christ died all men are saved!".....That is what the Pharisees thought, especially the chief Priest Ciaphas, when he said, "it is better for one man to die..." 10,000 Christ's, and Crosses would not be sufficient to save even ONE man if that man did not have faith in God!
However, One Christ and Cross is sufficient for the salvation of ALL who have FAITH in God.
I believe that FAITH ALONE on our part is what God sees in us for which HE saves us. However, until the Christ died on the cross there was no way for man to escape the penalty of sin, which is death! The death prescribed in Revelation 20. With Sins atoned for, through faith, we have salvation! Anything else is heresy!
Sorry Wes.
He died for His people. If you want to say "his People are anybody who believes" by your horrible eisegesis that's fine. It's still NOT EVERYBODY is it? If there is one person who doesn't have faith, that person by YOUR definition is not one of His. It says that He came to die for HIS people. So He did not die for Him !!! Either way you lose.
He died for His people. If you want to say "his People are anybody who believes" by your horrible eisegesis that's fine. It's still NOT EVERYBODY is it? If there is one person who doesn't have faith, that person by YOUR definition is not one of His. It says that He came to die for HIS people. So He did not die for Him !!! Either way you lose.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Guess what rc, He came unto his own and his own received him not! But, He died anyway? Don't you suppose that his death might have been for some purpose other than "his people"? Could it not have been to atone for sin, and not for people who would benefit by the removal of the penalty for sin? After all, God the Father established the Death Penalty for Sin, there would be none worthy of atoning for sin except one who is sinless. Scriptures reveal that sinless one to be Jesus, the Son of God.
Now, you can limit atonement for sin made by God the Son if you desire, but you are wrong to do so. God the Son is God of creation in the same manner that God the Father is God of Creation, and limiting an act of God against principalities and Powers is foolishness. "for we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers". Sin is a power, the scriptures declare it to be so. We sin because of the power that sin has over us through our disobedient nature. We know that to be true because Jesus declared that the spirit is the life of the flesh, the flesh has nothing to offer. It is the spirit the makes demands on the flesh and not the other way around. If we did not have disobedience as our spirit nature, our flesh would have no influence over us.
Now that atonement has taken place for all Sin; mankind, jew and gentile alike, can in spirit approach the throne of God where through confession of sins, we receive the forgiveness and cleansing that ONLY God can give to man. This ability to come to God is not dependent upon anything of man but man hearing the word of God and believing what it says.
Now, you can limit atonement for sin made by God the Son if you desire, but you are wrong to do so. God the Son is God of creation in the same manner that God the Father is God of Creation, and limiting an act of God against principalities and Powers is foolishness. "for we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers". Sin is a power, the scriptures declare it to be so. We sin because of the power that sin has over us through our disobedient nature. We know that to be true because Jesus declared that the spirit is the life of the flesh, the flesh has nothing to offer. It is the spirit the makes demands on the flesh and not the other way around. If we did not have disobedience as our spirit nature, our flesh would have no influence over us.
Now that atonement has taken place for all Sin; mankind, jew and gentile alike, can in spirit approach the throne of God where through confession of sins, we receive the forgiveness and cleansing that ONLY God can give to man. This ability to come to God is not dependent upon anything of man but man hearing the word of God and believing what it says.
His own was the JEWS Wes ! How basic can you get! But Matthew wasn't talking about that, he was talking about HIS people for which He would save! It's in it own context! It's a simple statement of fact. Going by your horrific misapplication,
A. Factual Assertion : Jesus was born to SAVE ALL HIS PEOPLE.
B. His people did not accept Him.
C. His people where not saved because they did not accept Him.
D. A is false, Jesus did not Save HIS people.
Now THATS absurd. The lengths people will go through to keep their traditions.
Christ SAVED HIS PEOPLE. He payed for them and no one else.
A. Factual Assertion : Jesus was born to SAVE ALL HIS PEOPLE.
B. His people did not accept Him.
C. His people where not saved because they did not accept Him.
D. A is false, Jesus did not Save HIS people.
Now THATS absurd. The lengths people will go through to keep their traditions.
Christ SAVED HIS PEOPLE. He payed for them and no one else.
Wes Outwest
New Member
Then YOU Define "His People"! Define who they are so that we can recognize them!