Calvinists, help me out here...

[johnp.]

johnp.

 

[Bro. James]

John 10:23-31

"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I and my Father are one.

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."

No exegesis required.

Selah,

Bro. James


Greetings, johnp, welcome to Athens.

 

[rc]

Pretty easy huh James? ....

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi RC;

He died for His people. If you want to say "his People are anybody who believes" by your horrible eisegesis that's fine. It's still NOT EVERYBODY is it? If there is one person who doesn't have faith, that person by YOUR definition is not one of His. It says that He came to die for HIS people. So He did not die for Him !!! Either way you lose.

Your just plain wrong as usual. He came to save His people and wound up dying for the whole world. You've already lost.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[rc]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!

Are you kidding me ! Doe you know how much of a complete horrible understanding that is?

What? Did God initially come down to save HIS PEOPLE but then when He got down here He found out that He screwed up and decided to change the plan and "WOUND UP" dying for everybody?

Don't you see how incredible that is? God didn't "wind up" doing nothing except what He planned on doing which is written for us to understand NOT to extract and change for our bias presuppositions!

Wes, please REFLECT upon what you said. That was aweful AND unscriptural AND you didn't refute the proof text. He died for HIS PEOPLE!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Then You set me straight, WHO ARE HIS PEOPLE?

 

[Wes Outwest]

His own was the JEWS Wes ! How basic can you get! But Matthew wasn't talking about that, he was talking about HIS people for which He would save! It's in it own context! It's a simple statement of fact. Going by your horrific misapplication,
A. Factual Assertion : Jesus was born to SAVE ALL HIS PEOPLE.

B. His people did not accept Him.

C. His people where not saved because they did not accept Him.

D. A is false, Jesus did not Save HIS people.

Now THATS absurd. The lengths people will go through to keep their traditions.

Christ SAVED HIS PEOPLE. He payed for them and no one else.

Regarding whom Jesus prayed for,

John 17:9. "....It is for them that I pray. I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me, because they belong to you."

John 17:20. "...I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me."

Same prayer session, same location, same Praying person. Jesus prays first for his Apostles, then for all who would, through their teaching, believe in Jesus, and thus have everlasting life. The Apostles God foreknew, he destined them to be the Apostles, they are the Elect! They were ALL Jews, (his own) The life of Christ was lived within 100 miles of the place of his birth, Bethlehem of Judea.

rc posted 01-03-2005 11:20
Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

It doesn't say He will make them SAVABLE ILL.
And look ... it says He will save HIS people from their sins, not unbelief. It is for a specific people and it is accomplished completely. He SAVED HIS PEOPLE FROM THIER SIN.
VERY particular. His People and their sin and HE saved them, not put them in a condition to be saved.

rc, Just how do you suppose that Jesus saved his people from their sins? In scripture there are very few that Jesus raised from the dead, thus saving them. Jesus died a sacrificial death, thus paying the penalty for sin IN OUR STEAD, so that through faith, we might have everlasting life rather than dying in and for our own sins? You see, it is because the FATHER established in the Garden with Adam that the penalty for sin is Death. "...if you eat of that tree you will surely die..." that death exists as the penalty for sin. What did Adam do? Yep, He disobeyed God and ate of the tree! So for the next few thousand years all mankind lived under the death penalty because ALL have sinned. Without something to break that "sin and die cycle", it would continue forever. However, God in his foreknowledge established that His Son would pay the penalty of all sins in All times, so that no man dies because of sin. Thus Jesus truly did save his people from their sins! All people are Jesus' people, we are all created, Adam and Eve created and the rest of us procreated, but not all acknowledge that truth. And Jesus said "whosoever believeth in Him shall not die but have everlasting life". So, guess who the "his people" in Matthew 1:21 are? That's right, according to Jesus, John 17:20, it is all the whosoever's that believe in Jesus, and it has been so for the past 2000 years!

He came into his own and his own received him NOT!

Matt 21:42-45. Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this is the Lord's doing and we marvel at it? "I tell you, then, that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." When they heard his parables, the chief priests and the scribes realized he was speaking about them, but though they would have liked to arrest him they were afraid of the crowds, who looked on him as a prophet.

AND

john 7:5. Not even his brothers had faith in him.
John 7:48. Have any of the authorities come to believe in him? Any of the Pharisees?

As for Jesus' Mission?

The prophesy: Isaiah 60 2,3 Look! though night still covers the earth and darkness the peoples, on you Yahweh is rising and over you his glory can be seen. The nations will come to your light and kings to your dawning brightness.

The Fulfillment: Acts 13:47,48a. For this is what the Lord commanded us to do when he said: I have made you a light to the nations, so that my salvation may reach the remotest parts of the earth." It made the gentiles very happy to hear this and they gave thanks to the Lord for his message;

NO more nonsense about who Jesus' people are! They are not a select few, they are the Nations of the world, the Whosoever's that come to have faith in Jesus! That is what Jesus came to do! That is what He Did and said "it is finished", meaning that everything is in place for man's salvation! It is now up to us to believe unto salvation!

 

[rc]

Jesus came to SAVE His people WEs...
Again, you miss the whole point.
Only the SAVED go to heaven Wes.
If ALL are His people the ALL are saved.
Again the grammer determines the meaning, not what you ADD to it. SAVED means just that. It doesn't mean "put in a position to where they then have the CHANCE to believe. It means actual salvation. He is a perfect saviour and saves perfectly. He will do what He came to do.
You haven't proven any point at all. He SAVED.

 

[Wes Outwest]

And rc, you continue to ignore the truth.

No one is saved before it is time, we are merely given the choice to believe and be saved (future tense), or to not believe and face the second death (again, future tense). It is our faith condition that marks us for the separation of the sheep and the Goats. It is our works brought on by our faith condition that are the symptoms of our faith. We are not saved in the flesh, all flesh dies, but we do receive the promise of salvation through our faith. Our salvation occurs when we who believe in Jesus PASS FROM DEATH (flesh) UNTO EVERLASTING LIFE. That is, when we leave these bodies of flesh that we occupy, we either go into the presence of the Holy Lamb of God, or we go to await our fate of being cast into the lake of fire. OUR FAITH, DETERMINES OUR FATE!

I have never said or otherwise indicated that ALL are saved! However, because the penalty for sin has been paid ONCE for ALL, whosoever out of ALL, that believeth in HIM shall not face the second death (final termination), but shall instead have everlasting life (salvation).

If all mankind are not "His people" then there must have been two creators creating identical human species. It is only through our personal choices that we become HIS PEOPLE spiritually speaking. Once we decide to submit ourselves to HIM, the Holy Spirit indwells us and shapes us into HIS likeness.

He came to save ALL Mankind! He enabled all mankind to believe and thereby be saved by HIM, but he does not force us to believe in HIM. He leaves that choice up to us! And Yes, we do have the power and the right to choose HIM of our own free will! He made it that way!

 

[rc]

No one is saved before it's time? Whose time. All is in referance to the one writing it. GOD!

Ephesians 1:4-9 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us(1 )for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known(1 )to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ

We (the elect) were ALL chosen before the WORLD Wes !

 

[Wes Outwest]

Ephesians 1:3-12 Paul is telling the Ephesians how the Apostles came to be! Verse 13 he begins to tell the Ephesians,

Eph 1:13,14. Now you too, in him, have heard the message of the truth and the gospel of your salvation, and having put your trust in it you have been stamped with the seal of the Holy Spirit of the Promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance, for the freedom of the people whom God has taken for his own, for the praise of his glory.

Just as John 17:20 says ...but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me. The Ephesian Christians certainly fall into that category of believing through the teachings of the Apostles.

We (the elect) were ALL chosen before the WORLD Wes !

So now you declare yourself to be an Apostle....how interesting!

 

[rc]

There is absolutely nothing that implies that Eph 1:13-14 says "This is how the apostles came to be" That is histarical. Read in context from verse 1, He is talking to THE SAINTS, then Paul says "who has blessed US" Do you mean Jesus only blessed the Apostles? NO. It's to the saints he referring to.

And then Paul tells them about their salvation.
"he chose US in him before the foundation of the world,"

And then Paul says WHY God did it.
he predestined us(1 )for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the PURPOSE of his will,

Sorry, Paul didn't say,

Ephesians.... this is how us apostles "came to be"..... that's rediculous.

But it does say that we are predestined ! Chosen before time. Sorry, God knew who Christ had to die for before time and then He paid the price to die for those that He chosen before time. Those He passed over "die in their SINS" not in their unbelief.

 

[Wes Outwest]

You still can't read, I said,

Ephesians 1:3-12 Paul is telling the Ephesians how the Apostles came to be! Verse 13 he begins to tell the Ephesians,

In Verse 13 Paul changes to explanation of the Ephesians condition.

Anyone studying for a Ddiv, who can't read the bible is doomed to be a false prophet!

 

[rc]

Hermaneutics 101 Wes,

It does not say that He is talking about the apostles Wes...

 

[Wes Outwest]

Ok, DDiv candidate, If you can't understand what you read, I hope you fail in your quest!

In verses 3 through twelve Paul is explaining where his authority is derived for writing the rest of the letter! Then he precedes to explain to the Ephesians how they too have received God's Salvation. And following he gives them the guidelines for living the Christian life.

 

[Hardsheller]

Tell us, please Wes,

How you got Apostles out of those first 11 verses of Ephesians 1.

I'll buy Jew who have been converted.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Tell us, please Wes,

How you got Apostles out of those first 11 verses of Ephesians 1.

I'll buy Jew who have been converted.

Try looking at

Eph 1:9,10 He has let us know the mystery of his purpose, according to his good pleasure which he determined beforehand in Christ, for him to act upon when the times had run their course: that he would bring everything together under Christ, as head, everything in the heavens and everything on earth.

The "US" is the Apostles in that it is through the apostles whom Jesus taught that everything is brought under Jesus as head.

Was it not the chosen 12 who were with God the Son somewhat constantly for some 3 1/2 years? Is it not the 12 that God the Son revealed himself to?
Now look at John the end of 16 and all of 17

John 16:31-33 Jesus answered them: Do you believe at last? Listen; the time will come- indeed it has come already- when you are going to be scattered, each going his own way and leaving me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. I have told you all this so that you may find peace in me. In the world you will have hardship, but be courageous: I have conquered the world.

Then, Jesus, praying in the presence of his Apostles, John 17:6-9

I have revealed your name to those whom you took from the world to give me. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now at last they have recognised that all you have given me comes from you for I have given them the teaching you gave to me, and they have indeed accepted it and know for certain that I came from you, and have believed that it was you who sent me. It is for them that I pray. I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.

It is clear to me that Paul is saying to the Ephesians that by virtue of the authority of the Christ given to the Apostles, who taught the Ephesians, that,

(Eph 1:13,14) Now you too, in him, have heard the message of the truth and the gospel of your salvation, and having put your trust in it you have been stamped with the seal of the Holy Spirit of the Promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance, for the freedom of the people whom God has taken for his own, for the praise of his glory.

This is confirmed by Jesus in his Prayer to the Father in

John 17:20 I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me.

The Ephesians are not Jews they are Turks, Ephesus is in modern day Turkey? They were Gentiles, Paul is an apostle to the Gentiles. Therefore I believe that Paul sets the stage or establishes His authority in verses 3-12, then explains the Ephesian condition in accordance with the Lords Prayer in the Garden as stated above

 

[rc]

You guys really need to take a hermeneutics class.

"Us" is defined by the most previous defined personal noun. Hmmmm lets actually look and see what the text says "WITHOUT" throwing garbage into it.

VERSE 1 To THE SAINTS who are in Ephesus
VERSE 2 Grace to YOU
VERSE 3 who has blessed US

Us refers to The writer and the most previous defined noun... hmmm I don't see any "apostles" in there... why... because Paul is including THE SAINTS in Ephesus ! If Paul wanted to talk about the Apostles, he would NOT have said US, but "THE APOSTLES".
Also the paragraph doesn't allow it. If Paul was excluding the Saints by just talking about the 12 then unless the language changes, EVERYTHING that Paul says when he says "WE", "US" will refer again to the last defined noun.

Where only the apostles:

blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

that we should be holy and blameless before him.

the praise of his glorious GRACE, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. (grace was only given to the apostles huh?)

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, (only the apostles have received redemption?)

Even if this horrible understanding of verse 1 would be taken seriously, it dramatically fails by the grammar. (happy Diane?)

 

[Wes Outwest]

You guys really need to take a hermeneutics class.

Eph 1:1,2 Paul, by the will of God an apostle of Christ Jesus, to God's holy people, faithful in Christ Jesus. Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

First, Paul's greeting ends here, not with verse 3

Verse 3 through 14 is Paul explaining to the Ephesians the mystery of Salvation and of the church which at that time had as its core, the Apostles of Jesus Christ!

Us refers to The writer and the most previous defined noun... hmmm I don't see any "apostles" in there... why... because Paul is including THE SAINTS in Ephesus ! If Paul wanted to talk about the Apostles, he would NOT have said US, but "THE APOSTLES".
Also the paragraph doesn't allow it. If Paul was excluding the Saints by just talking about the 12 then unless the language changes, EVERYTHING that Paul says when he says "WE", "US" will refer again to the last defined noun.

If you call that hermeneutics, I want none of it! You need to learn how to read the bible. Here is Ephesians 1:3-14 separated according to the thoughts being conveyed.

Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings of heaven in Christ.

Thus he chose us in Christ before the world was made to be holy and faultless before him in love, marking us out for himself beforehand, to be adopted sons, through Jesus Christ.

Such was his purpose and good pleasure, to the praise of the glory of his grace, his free gift to us in the Beloved, in whom, through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins.

Such is the richness of the grace which he has showered on us in all wisdom and insight.

He has let us know the mystery of his purpose, according to his good pleasure which he determined beforehand in Christ, for him to act upon when the times had run their course: that he would bring everything together under Christ, as head, everything in the heavens and everything on earth.

And it is in him that we have received our heritage, marked out beforehand as we were, under the plan of the One who guides all things as he decides by his own will, chosen to be, for the praise of his glory, the people who would put their hopes in Christ before he came.

Now you too, in him, have heard the message of the truth and the gospel of your salvation, and having put your trust in it you have been stamped with the seal of the Holy Spirit of the Promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance, for the freedom of the people whom God has taken for his own, for the praise of his glory.

Now Tell me Who is Paul talking about in all but the last paragraph? Clue, it is NOT the Ephesians! In the last paragraph He addresses the Ephesians.

Now if one looks at John 17, where Jesus is praying in the presence of the Apostles, we see in verse 6-8 "I have revealed your name to those whom you took from the world to give me. They were yours and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now at last they have recognised that all you have given me comes from you for I have given them the teaching you gave to me, and they have indeed accepted it and know for certain that I came from you, and have believed that it was you who sent me.

John 17:1-26 Explains Ephesians 1:3-12 and 13,14.

No rc, IT IS YOU who needs a class in Hermeneutics!

 

[rc]

There is no reason to explain this first of all to the Ephesians and secondly....

THE GRAMMER doesn't allow it Wes ! Stop talking about things you don't understand! THere isn't theology teacher that would say this... this is all made up by your god... yourself! Give me one book, commentary that is spewing this... I know, it goes along with that make-believe history book that says Calvinists were condemned as heretics by the protestant church ! ha !