Calvinists, help me out here...

[Wes Outwest]

This is Paul's only letter, that we have record of, directed to the Ephesians, a relatively young body of believers of probably not more than 5 years of existence. Why do you say that there is no reason to write this explaination to the Ephesians? They did not have denominational supervision to guide them on the straight and narrow, all they had were levels of maturity among themselves and the teachings of the Apostles handed down mouth to ear. Yes there was EVERY GOOD REASON TO EXPLAIN the church to the Ephesians!

By land, on foot, Ephesus was approximately 1700 miles from Jerusalem, there were no freeways or major easily traveled roads. A man in good condition can walk about 20 miles in a day, so it would take 85 days to make a one way trip from Jerusalem to Ephesus on foot. By Sailing ship it may have been slightly less than 1/3 of that or lets say 3 weeks with good sailing weather. So tell me rc, was it necessary for Paul to provide the opening of Ephesians 1:3-12?

rc stop being a bonehead and think things through! Put yourself in the scene of the eastern mediterranian 2000 years ago! Put yourself in the scene of the early church, put yourself in Ephesus 2000 years ago. Do you even know where Ephesus is?

I'll compare my understanding to yours any day! But it will be a short comparison because you have no understanding!

 

[johnp.]

Wes.

By land, on foot, Ephesus was approximately 1700 miles from Jerusalem...

You got that map out again Wes? You run a tour agency?

johnp.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Wes.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />By land, on foot, Ephesus was approximately 1700 miles from Jerusalem...

You got that map out again Wes? You run a tour agency?

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]Nope! Just pointing out some simple facts of the matter for your consideration since you seem to be unable to think things through.

 

[rc]

Actually Wes... I've been to Ephesus 5 times...
Corinth, Athens, Rome, Thessolinica also..

I've taught church tours in Israel 7 times.

My favorite place is Shiloh.

All the more Wes, if they were ignorant to everything and he was schooling them "About the apostles" he would of made it CLEAR by stating that. BUT he didn't use that language or grammar! He included them. Sorry.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
Actually Wes... I've been to Ephesus 5 times...
Corinth, Athens, Rome, Thessolinica also..

I've taught church tours in Israel 7 times.

My favorite place is Shiloh.

All the more Wes, if they were ignorant to everything and he was schooling them "About the apostles" he would of made it CLEAR by stating that. BUT he didn't use that language or grammar! He included them. Sorry.

Wow, I'm jealous!

But I believe Paul was providing the Ephesians with a "document of record" of his teachings, and therefore described the church from the very earliest and, without naming names, and he described the qualifications of those who are at the core of the church, the Apostles.

 

[rc]

You can believe that Wes. But I think that you have failed to show FROM the text. Don't you see how hard it is to believe that? Everything you are stating is not IN the text.
Also, Paul was already considered an authority. He didn't need to explain it in an epistle for there where no divisions about that in history. What would new believers who already accepted Paul as an authority be wanting to hear? The history of the Apostles (which is Acts) or what people today are still asking?! Which is what is MY position in Christ! Again the focus is always on Christ not the apostles.
The focus would not flow and there would be no purpose if the first part of the letter was about the Apostles and then BOOM for no reason Paul starts talking about their walk in Christ.
What's the point or where is the seguay? There is no THEREFORE, or SO ... and build upon this authority claim. It would just be dangling outside the letter.

The answers are the positions of believers in Christ.

Blessing in Christ 1.3-14
A. Elected by the father
B. Redeemed by the Son
C. Sealed by the Spirit

Our position in Christ 2.1-3.13
A. Reconciled with God and Seated with Christ
B. Reconciled with God's People and growing into God's Temple
C. Recipients and Revealers of God's mystery

Our walk in Christ 4.1-6.9

Our stand against spiritual forces of darkness 6.10-20

 

[Wes Outwest]

Your understanding is clearly not consistant with the text!

 

[rc]

I didn't give you my "understanding" of the text. I just gave you "the text" it's an outline.

Can't you outline a text? Give me YOUR outline of it and show how Pauls "explaining" the history of the apostles is the "topic" of this text. And see if it is clean as mine. It can't be done because it is faulty. BUT I'm willing to give you a chance, please outline the text for us.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

I didn't give you my "understanding" of the text. I just gave you "the text" it's an outline.

Your not very convincing. No out line can be the text.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[rc]

Outline is a structuring of the text. I gave you one. I asked for you to outline it with the way you believed Paul intended his thought to be understood.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

rc;

Outline is a structuring of the text. I gave you one. I asked for you to outline it with the way you believed Paul intended his thought to be understood.

Structuring Hmmmmm; I'd say twisting when done by you. Besides you didn't ask me you asked Wes
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[rc]

Either one.. doesn't make a difference.

If I "twisted" the understanding of Pauls thought through Ephesians, please outline it by yourself so I can see where you are coming from and Paul, for that matter.

 

[onecoolcanuk]

"...in short, men, angels, and the fallen ones all willingly and voluntarily do whatever God Himself has sovereignly decreed, including sin, but God Himself does not dirty His own hands in the process."

How honourable. God causes it all to happen and wipes His hands clean of the matter. Sounds like a sneaky "god" to me. I think He allows it to happen to show our need for a Saviour and that He is willing to save ANYONE...not just a mystical "elect".

So going back to God. He does not dirty Hiw own hands in the process eh? So...how about Charles Manson. He got some weak minded people to do his dirty work for him, thus not dirtying his own hands in the process. Yet he's still in jail. How can God be above the law in this instance yet you Calvinist claim that God can't break the "human" law of "double jeopardy"? I'm just curious to find out.

 

[rc]

How can God be above the law in this instance yet you Calvinist claim that God can't break the "human" law of "double jeopardy"? I'm just curious to find out.

In Theology it's called "concurrance". Quite simple actually. Same act two intentions.

Man's act and INTENTIONS - evil
God's providence and will and intentions - holy.

God ordained the murder of the only perfect human being in history, His son. Was that evil? No. It pleased Him and gave Him glory.
Was man's intentions of cruxifying Christ evil?
Yes.

God's purposes and will are holy, mans purposes are evil. In every act, in all history. No "dirty hands" for God, just His beautiful plan for His glory.