Calvinists: How is God NOT a sinner?

[Ivon Denosovich]

Full disclosure: not sure how/what I think about the issue of Calvinism. Many of my Southern Baptist friends have recently converted to Reformed Theology and are trying to persuade me to do the same. I've asked my friends the question in the OP and received nothing but "ummm...'s" as a response.

So, if God is truly omnipotent then isn't He the one doing everything? Including all the bad stuff?

FWIW, don't take this as an attack: I'm seriously considering 'converting' to Calvinism. Some of it seems to make sense. :wavey:

 

[Marcia]

My several years on the BB and reading what the Calvinists here say has convinced me not to be one, and not to want to be one. :tongue3:

 

[annsni]

So you are saying that if God is all powerful, then He's a sinner? How do you come to that conclusion???

 

[Ivon Denosovich]

Oh, forgot to add this: the Op (and this post) will be my last contribution to this thread as I'm not interested in debating/arguing/fighting... for I'm only interested in listening.

To the Calvinists kind enough to respond, this thread is "yours" now. You have my complete attention.

 

[Rippon]

So you are saying that if God is all powerful, then He's a sinner? How do you come to that conclusion???

I'm with Ann here. I don't get the connection since God is All-Powerful that He's also doing all the bad stuff as you so eloquently put it.

And who would start a thread and then bail-out so soon?

 

[Benjamin]

You might do a search on the POE (Problem of Evil) and "hard determinism"...

 

[kyredneck]

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Ro 9:14

 

[saturneptune]

I'm with Ann here. I don't get the connection since God is All-Powerful that He's also doing all the bad stuff as you so eloquently put it.

And who would start a thread and then bail-out so soon?

To answer your last question, whoever wishes to do so. If someone wants to start a thread then bail, as long as it is within the rules of the forum, then that is their right. What you think of it is a mute point.

Now, getting back to the op, God is not a sinner regardless of which side you believe about Calvinism. To the author of this thread, I cannot blame you for not wanting to get into this debate, as there are some extremely rude posters on both sides. This subject and Bible versions bring out the worst in posters.

 

[Tom Bryant]

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Ro 9:14

I am not a Calvinist, but this is exactly the right answer. Bible believing, Non-Calvinists believe in the God's omnipotence, if they don't they are not Bible believers.

 

[Rippon]

To answer your last question, whoever wishes to do so. If someone wants to start a thread then bail, as long as it is within the rules of the forum, then that is their right. What you think of it is a mute (sic)point.

It's a deaf point?:smilewinkgrin:

To the author of this thread, I cannot blame you for not wanting to get into this debate, as there are some extremely rude posters on both sides. This subject and Bible versions bring out the worst in posters.

I see you have reverted to your old ways SN.

 

[saturneptune]

I see you have reverted to your old ways SN.

Old ways or new ways as you call them, there is no excuse for the lack of respect you show posters that do not agree with your views. Any person of average intelligence can discuss an issue in a civil manner.

 

[Rippon]

Old ways or new ways as you call them, there is no excuse for the lack of respect you show posters that do not agree with your views.

Please R-E-A-D posts, before commenting. Slow down, breathe, then form thoughts, finally type a reasonable entry.

Any person of average intelligence can discuss an issue in a civil manner.

So you would be of the extra-intelligent category or ...?

 

[saturneptune]

So you would be of the extra-intelligent category or ...?

No, as a matter of fact, I am quite average in that category, but then again, it is a step above you.

 

[Havensdad]

Hmm. No one wants to address the question: so I guess I will. I must preface this by saying I am rather "soft" Calvinist (I hate that word; I am a Christian, not a Calvinist).

This is from a recent paper I wrote, regarding this subject. Hope it helps.

Distinguishing God’s Sovereign Decrees
Besides the issue of free will, God’s sovereignty must be clearly understood as well. It is not enough to simply say that God’s will always occurs. For although this is certainly true, it leaves an important question regarding God’s righteousness; how can God ordain evil?
Augustus Strong solves this problem by differentiating between God’s eternal decrees and his permissive agency. God’s eternal decrees are those things which God, in eternity past, has decided will definitely happen. For instance, God might decree that on a certain day a car wreck might occur due to the inattention of the driver. God, by his sovereign decree, determines that this event will take place.
Yet even though God has decreed that it will take place, He does not directly cause it. On the contrary, the cause of the wreck is inattention on the part of the driver due to his own choices. Perhaps the individual stayed out too late the night before or was breaking the law by text messaging and driving at the same time. Whatever the reason, God arranged the circumstances in such a way that the event would occur by an act of free will on the part of the driver. In this way, God is decreeing that an event will take place by utilizing the free agency of man.
This even applies to outright sinful acts. Though no decree of God declares “you shall sin,” it is nevertheless the case that God has decreed that sin will occur. These sinful acts of rebellion serve to further God’s divine plan, or as Strong puts it, “Even though he struggle against God’s plan, yet he must by his very resistance serve it.”

 

[Winman]

Distinguishing God’s Sovereign Decrees
Besides the issue of free will, God’s sovereignty must be clearly understood as well. It is not enough to simply say that God’s will always occurs. For although this is certainly true, it leaves an important question regarding God’s righteousness; how can God ordain evil?
Augustus Strong solves this problem by differentiating between God’s eternal decrees and his permissive agency. God’s eternal decrees are those things which God, in eternity past, has decided will definitely happen. For instance, God might decree that on a certain day a car wreck might occur due to the inattention of the driver. God, by his sovereign decree, determines that this event will take place.
Yet even though God has decreed that it will take place, He does not directly cause it. On the contrary, the cause of the wreck is inattention on the part of the driver due to his own choices. Perhaps the individual stayed out too late the night before or was breaking the law by text messaging and driving at the same time. Whatever the reason, God arranged the circumstances in such a way that the event would occur by an act of free will on the part of the driver. In this way, God is decreeing that an event will take place by utilizing the free agency of man.
This even applies to outright sinful acts. Though no decree of God declares “you shall sin,” it is nevertheless the case that God has decreed that sin will occur. These sinful acts of rebellion serve to further God’s divine plan, or as Strong puts it, “Even though he struggle against God’s plan, yet he must by his very resistance serve it.”

The problem with this view is that the scriptures clearly show that some things happen that are not decreed by God. This is shown several times in Jeremiah.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Here the Jews were sacrificing their children to false gods, and God says he never commanded or spoke this, neither did it come into his heart or mind.

So the scriptures do not teach that God is controlling every little detail of what happens.

The scriptures also speak of "chance" many times which would not be possible if all events were decreed beforehand.

Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

 

[Havensdad]

The problem with this view is that the scriptures clearly show that some things happen that are not decreed by God. This is shown several times in Jeremiah.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Here the Jews were sacrificing their children to false gods, and God says he never commanded or spoke this, neither did it come into his heart or mind.

So the scriptures do not teach that God is controlling every little detail of what happens.

The scriptures also speak of "chance" many times which would not be possible if all events were decreed beforehand.

Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Right back at'cha, bro...

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

This statement says plainly that nothing happens that is not according to God's will.

However, you are ripping those scriptures out of context. Clearly, all that Jeremiah 19 is saying, was that these things had never been commanded to be done. God is not saying that He was ignorant of such things ("nor came it into my mind"), and likewise, He is not saying that he did not give an eternal decree that such would take place. He is just saying "I never told you to do this."

Absolutely nothing can happen, that God does not decree. God is not in heaven, wringing His hands, hoping that everything turns out allright.

BTW: The OP specifically said he wanted explanations from Calvinists: not an argument. Get your own thread.

 

[Skandelon]

Since the OP author has bailed can I ask a follow up question for further clarity?

I'm going to whether you want me to or not:

If God is all powerful and is IN CONTROL over all things and nothing that exists does so apart from Him, then where does the evil thought of raping and murdering a child originate? (I choose the most heinous example to illustrate the gravity of the question)

If God decrees all things as in "predetermining" them this is a real issue, but if by "decree" the Calvinist simply means that God "permits" it, then the question comes as to the origination of such a sinful thought or motive. What caused that thought?

If someone or something other than God originated that thought then is God still omnipotent in the true sense of the word? Is God really "in control" over all things if there is a thought that originates outside his causing it? If so, how? How can someone be in complete control if their are other beings who have the power of original thought and actions?

 

[Havensdad]

Since the OP author has bailed can I ask a follow up question for further clarity?

I'm going to whether you want me to or not:

If God is all powerful and is IN CONTROL over all things and nothing that exists does so apart from Him, then where does the evil thought of raping and murdering a child originate? (I choose the most heinous example to illustrate the gravity of the question)

If God decrees all things as in "predetermining" them this is a real issue, but if by "decree" the Calvinist simply means that God "permits" it, then the question comes as to the origination of such a sinful thought or motive. What caused that thought?

If someone or something other than God originated that thought then is God still omnipotent in the true sense of the word? Is God really "in control" over all things if there is a thought that originates outside his causing it? If so, how? How can someone be in complete control if their are other beings who have the power of original thought and actions?

If I arrange your circumstances, in such a way as to cause you to think something evil, you are fully responsible for it, yet that thought has been fully brought about by me.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Full disclosure: not sure how/what I think about the issue of Calvinism. Many of my Southern Baptist friends have recently converted to Reformed Theology and are trying to persuade me to do the same. I've asked my friends the question in the OP and received nothing but "ummm...'s" as a response.

So, if God is truly omnipotent then isn't He the one doing everything? Including all the bad stuff?

FWIW, don't take this as an attack: I'm seriously considering 'converting' to Calvinism. Some of it seems to make sense. :wavey:

Absolutism rears its head again.

Let me see, since God is Omnipotent, and He is my creator, then if I blow bad air as a result of (1) something I ate, (2) some illness in me, (3) having slept with my mouth open and gulping in all those air, then it is God who caused me to expel that foul-smelling air because He is the One who created me, and the system by which I exist, right ?

Now, if I am sitting by myself in a park, and a drug addict comes by in need of a fix but no money for it, and sees me, and brandishes a knife at me, and I grab the knife hand and do an Ippon Seinagi or one handed shoulder throw and in the process break his hip bone when he lands that is going to be God's fault because in His Omnipotence He ordered my life and I learned Judo as part of that ordering, and it is also God's fault with regards to the other party because He is Omnipotent and could have ordered the other party's life another way so that he doesn't become an addict needing a fix and we didn't have to meet on that certain date and time and place and I wouldn't have broken his hip and he could've been a college graduate with a high paying job somewhere else.

I think the Arabs have a word for it: KISMET ?

 

[olegig]

Full disclosure: not sure how/what I think about the issue of Calvinism. Many of my Southern Baptist friends have recently converted to Reformed Theology and are trying to persuade me to do the same. I've asked my friends the question in the OP and received nothing but "ummm...'s" as a response.

So, if God is truly omnipotent then isn't He the one doing everything? Including all the bad stuff?

FWIW, don't take this as an attack: I'm seriously considering 'converting' to Calvinism. Some of it seems to make sense. :wavey:

The first thing that came into my head was if you are considering 'converting' to something, I am wondering what you are 'converting' from.
The only Biblical conversion I know of is from lost to saved.

IMO when considering any theology, be it post-millennialism, pre-millennialism, dispensationalism, covenant theologyism, Replacement theologyism, Calvinism, etc...one should look to the implications of the belief system.
How does the "ism", taken in whole, apply and agree with the whole body of scripture.

All the "isms" as with most all denominations have a basis in scripture. The proponents of each can give scriptural reference and make sound cases for each of their chosen belief systems.

IMO ones chosen "ism" or theology should agree with the whole body of scripture as the scripture stands and not just some passages.
Therefore in the end the final judgement is yours and yours alone.