Calvinists: How is God NOT a sinner?

[The Archangel]

But the scriptures say chance exists.

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

Jesus said chance exists, that's good enough for me.

Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Here we can see what can only be described as a hermeneutical catastrophe.

1. In the Luke passage, this is a parable. Jesus is telling a story; He is not saying "blind chance" exists, as you imply.

The Greek indicates a coming together of circumstances, not "chance."

2. The Ecclesiastes passage is discussing death and how it can (and does) fall on men suddenly.

The Hebrew translated as "chance" is better understood as occurrence.

Nowhere in these passages is "chance" talked about in the way you suggest.

It really is amazing what you can do with a word-search program, isn't it? Isn't it also amazing how one can proof text by using the aforementioned word-search program and coupling that with an absolute disregard for context or theology? Sad indeed.

The Archangel

 

[zrs6v4]

But the scriptures say chance exists.

Luke 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

Jesus said chance exists, that's good enough for me. .

The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

 

[Skandelon]

Im speaking directly to His decretive will that governs every single event from the drip of water to the shift in tides in the ocean. I agree that God does not desire sin and in fact despises it in full fury, although He decrees it for a greater purpose. He hated the sin of the Jews in that they hated His Son, but He decreed for every single small event to happen in order to fulfill the Scirptures to perfection. This in turn pleased Him to bruise His Son and glorified Him in an unimaginable way. I think there is a link between God's decrees of sin to a greater cause to recieve glory. I think it jeopardizes sovereignty and providence to say God just sits back and watches or to say God worked with what we gave Him when He was predetermining all events of time. I believe those times when I stumble have a purpose and God ordained those events. Now the way I react to them is inclined to sin, although God's grace can enable me to glorify God and not curse Him in those events. Without God's grace I am going to ask "Why, God, did you allow that to happen?" The tough part arises when I think about how God sovereignly controlled my sin against Him for a greater purpose whatever it may be. I dont think we can say God secondarily causes sin for no purpose.

The last time you sinned, do you believe you could have done otherwise? Could you have willingly resisted that temptation? Or did God determine that you would do that so that you couldn't have done otherwise?

Now lets examine what it does when we believe God doesnt have total control over evil in the sense that He brings it about secondarily to achieve a greater purpose:

1. We not only mourn to know that God has no part of sin, hates sin, and that it destroys, but we then begin to see that God had total control over it in that He brought it to us for a perfect purpose and we may trust His wisdom and will that cannot be thwarted rather than try to figure out how God worked with what He had been given by evil to work with.

We keep using different phraseology but without making the distinction. You don't like it when I say it appears God caused sin, but then you say, "He brought it to us." You need to better define your meaning because I don't see how this phrase is any different.

By chance I meant, by accident or no purpose. Chance to me means that God had no part or control over the event.

These are two different things in my view. Something can be out from under God's control (under his permissive will) but not be by "accident" or without a "purpose."

Say a tree fell and crushed a 4 year old little boy. I could fall on the open theist perspective and be comforted by saying, "God, I know this took you by surprise and we cry together knowing that you dont have control or knowledge of this." OR I can realize that God did it, not in a evil way, but for a good purpose and I can be comforted to know God has total control over the event.

But there is another, better, option.

God, having given this world over to the prince of darkness, permitted the evil one to rule this world and the effects of sin and depravity to take hold. Thus, God, not desiring or finding pleasure in the disaster of the tree crushing the child can redeem every situation for his glory and the greater redemptive good (Rm. 8:28). God does not desire evil nor does he decree it (or in any way cause it...he only permits it). He has given over this world to darkness and permits it to suffer the consequences of that sin. The good news is that God is in Christ reconciling the world to himself and has given us the ministry of reconciliation. Thus, we implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

Ephesians 6:12:
For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms.

1 John 5:19
We know that we belong to God even though the whole world is under the rule of the Evil One.

2 Cor. 5:
11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[olegig]

Esther 4:
14For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?

Make no mistake, God's plan will happen whether we are His willing instrument or not; but if not, He will find another.

 

[J.D.]

Esther 4:
14For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?

Make no mistake, God's plan will happen whether we are His willing instrument or not; but if not, He will find another.

A quick comment on this. First, although it can be that Esther serves as a type of Christ here, the passage speaks more directly to historic providence rather than salvific election and predestination. Second, whether providence or salvific predestination is the intended message or not, in either case the words "who knoweth whether" favor the Reformed understanding of the passage. We do not know who is elect and who is not, until someone confesses faith and bears some measure of resultant fruit; niether do we know whether someone has been chosen to be the means of deliverance or not until after the deliverance has become reality.

 

[Winman]

Here we can see what can only be described as a hermeneutical catastrophe.

1. In the Luke passage, this is a parable. Jesus is telling a story; He is not saying "blind chance" exists, as you imply.

The Greek indicates a coming together of circumstances, not "chance."

2. The Ecclesiastes passage is discussing death and how it can (and does) fall on men suddenly.

The Hebrew translated as "chance" is better understood as occurrence.

Nowhere in these passages is "chance" talked about in the way you suggest.

It really is amazing what you can do with a word-search program, isn't it? Isn't it also amazing how one can proof text by using the aforementioned word-search program and coupling that with an absolute disregard for context or theology? Sad indeed.

The Archangel

Strongs Corcordance disagrees with you. The word chance in Luke 10:31 is defined as:

1) accident, by chance

But I'm sure you consider yourself a greater scholar than James Strong and the over one hundred Greek and Hebrew scholars who helped him publish his concordance.

You should write your own concordance, I'm sure it would be a great success.