Calvinists vs Armenians: A Challenging--But Senseless--Debate

[stevewm1963]

Faith comes from God, it is not a work!
Ephesians 2:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[JonC]

Faith comes from God, it is not a work!
Ephesians 2:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Of men....not a work of men. We are saved through faith and that not of ourselves. It is the gift of God. We are definitely saved through works....God's works and not ours.

 

[JonShaff]

Active verb. Something you do.

Hey brother, merry Christmas. I'm just going to be straight up, you sound like the pharisees when they condemned Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. They spent all their time determining what a "work" is, condemning those around them for naught.

The reformed camp has taken things too far! You've turned the sovereignty of God into the doctrine of hate. You follow a guy who executed children and women. Red flag!

The Bible clearly describes that salvation and regeneration is of God. Man is called to Respond. I didn't make that up, King Jesus did, take it up with Him! I've listened to enough cocky, rude, arrogant tones that accompany the talking points from calvinists. I'm through! It's doctrine isn't producing holiness. Red flag!


Look, I got it...Calvinism was a direct response for Catholicism, a works based salvation. So it went to the extreme. No balance there either.

Everything is a work, blah blah blah. And if you don't agree we are going to condemn you.

Pharisees did this and they went to the extreme. They Added their traditions to "protect the law". Calvinists have done the same, to "protect" God's gift of salvation. But you've taken it too far. Condemning people who say faith is the proper response and saying it's a work. Works are baptism, alms giving, communion, etc. Believing is not a work! !!!!!!!

 

[TCassidy]

Hey brother, merry Christmas. I'm just going to be straight up, you sound like the pharisees when they condemned Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. They spent all their time determining what a "work" is, condemning those around them for naught.

Yes, heal is a verb. Something Jesus did. And the Pharisees condemned Him because they did not believe Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath. Is that what you are accusing me of?

The reformed camp has taken things too far!

I am not reformed. And I believe the Gospel. All of it.

You've turned the sovereignty of God into the doctrine of hate.

Once again you engage in a vicious attack against me and what I believe, and falsely accuse me of hate.

You follow a guy who executed children and women.

Jesus did not execute children and women.

Red flag!

Yes, making false accusations is a big red flag.

It's doctrine isn't producing holiness.

It does in those who believe it. But in those who deny that God is Sovereign in salvation, and that the sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient and finished, it produces hatred and name calling and bearing false witness.

Red flag!

Big red flag.

Everything is a work, blah blah blah.

Yes, active verbs indicate something is a work.

And if you don't agree we are going to condemn you.

I noticed that you are very condemnatory in your statement above.

Condemning people who say faith is the proper response and saying it's a work.

I didn't say that. Jesus did.

Believing is not a work!

Jesus said it is.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Are you going to make false accusations against Him too?

 

[JonShaff]

Yes, heal is a verb. Something Jesus did. And the Pharisees condemned Him because they did not believe Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath. Is that what you are accusing me of?

I am not reformed. And I believe the Gospel. All of it.

Once again you engage in a vicious attack against me and what I believe, and falsely accuse me of hate.

Jesus did not execute children and women.

Yes, making false accusations is a big red flag.

It does in those who believe it. But in those who deny that God is Sovereign in salvation, and that the sacrifice of Jesus was sufficient and finished, it produces hatred and name calling and bearing false witness.


Big red flag.
Yes, active verbs indicate something is a work.

I noticed that you are very condemnatory in your statement above.

I didn't say that. Jesus did.

Jesus said it is.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Are you going to make false accusations against Him too?

Calvin executed women and children.

 

[utilyan]

Hey brother, merry Christmas. I'm just going to be straight up, you sound like the pharisees when they condemned Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. They spent all their time determining what a "work" is, condemning those around them for naught.

The reformed camp has taken things too far! You've turned the sovereignty of God into the doctrine of hate. You follow a guy who executed children and women. Red flag!

The Bible clearly describes that salvation and regeneration is of God. Man is called to Respond. I didn't make that up, King Jesus did, take it up with Him! I've listened to enough cocky, rude, arrogant tones that accompany the talking points from calvinists. I'm through! It's doctrine isn't producing holiness. Red flag!


Look, I got it...Calvinism was a direct response for Catholicism, a works based salvation. So it went to the extreme. No balance there either.

Everything is a work, blah blah blah. And if you don't agree we are going to condemn you.

Pharisees did this and they went to the extreme. They Added their traditions to "protect the law". Calvinists have done the same, to "protect" God's gift of salvation. But you've taken it too far. Condemning people who say faith is the proper response and saying it's a work. Works are baptism, alms giving, communion, etc. Believing is not a work! !!!!!!!

Jon your a 5 point Calvinist. That's easy to prove.

The only reason most protestants aren't Calvinist is due to ignorance of logic and vocabulary.

They don't get if A = B and B = C then A = C




"The Bible clearly describes that salvation and regeneration is of God. Man is called to Respond"

This statement I think describes Calvinist better then your own "position".




"Calvin executed women and children."

Red Flags huh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Martin Luther's book

From wiki:
===
In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[6] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[7] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[8]
===


Martin Luther probably killed more women and children, he inspired the reformers, probably inspired the Nazis.

 

[TCassidy]

Calvin executed women and children.

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. So, when you said "You follow a guy who executed children and women" you not only lied but also blasphemed.

 

[JonShaff]

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. So, when you said "You follow a guy who executed children and women" you not only lied but also blasphemed.

That clearly wasn't my intent, please forgive me.

 

[Agent47]

Any term can be 'badly misunderstood' and 'efficacious grace' is no different. The underlying philosophy is what matters IMO.

So, this 'efficacious grace', is it available to all men?

The Gospel is important. It can't be properly preached if it is not properly understood.

StefanM, I no longer use the term "Irresistible Grace" as it is so badly misunderstood by most people. I now use the term "Efficacious Grace." The Grace of God is Efficacious to all who receive it. And no person who has received Efficacious Grace will ever be condemned.

 

[JonC]

So, this 'efficacious grace', is it available to all men?

God’s grace, or mercy, is that God loved the world by sending His Son that whosoever who would believe would have everlasting life. This grace is available to all men because this hope is the living God who is the Savior of all men. But at the same time this grace is not universally efficacious. This living God in whom our hope resides is the Savior of all men, but especially of believers.

There is but one Cross, one Christ, one Way. There is one hope, one plan of redemption, and one offer to the world that whosoever comes may freely drink. That God bids all but draws some does not diminish grace, but instead heaps grace upon grace towards those who are being saved.

I have never understood the obsession that so may in our faith have for those who will not believe. It is, I believe, an obsession that often leaves doctrine intended for those who do believe in ruin.

 

[Agent47]

You have answered my question in the highlighted. Th e rest of your post is irrelevant to my inquiry.

Now that this grace is AVAILABLE to ALL men, why do some men still perish?

God’s grace, or mercy, is that God loved the world by sending His Son that whosoever who would believe would have everlasting life. This grace is available to all men because this hope is the living God who is the Savior of all men. But at the same time this grace is not universally efficacious. This living God in whom our hope resides is the Savior of all men, but especially of believers.

There is but one Cross, one Christ, one Way. There is one hope, one plan of redemption, and one offer to the world that whosoever comes may freely drink. That God bids all but draws some does not diminish grace, but instead heaps grace upon grace towards those who are being saved.

I have never understood the obsession that so may in our faith have for those who will not believe. It is, I believe, an obsession that often leaves doctrine intended for those who do believe in ruin.

 

[Yeshua1]

God is not a liar.
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Belief in Jesus is requiredt in order to have God save us, correct?
Faith in Him not a work of ours, it is His gift to us.

 

[TCassidy]

You have answered my question in the highlighted.

The best way to get the right answer is to ask the right question. When you don't really understand the question you will never be able to understand the right answer.

 

[Agent47]

Best way to answer is to stick to the subject before needless digression

The best way to get the right answer is to ask the right question. When you don't really understand the question you will never be able to understand the right answer.

 

[Agent47]

So those who don't believe are yet to receive this gift, right?

Further, they perish because the gift, the only thing that could save them, is unavailable, right?

Further still, God has elected not to save them, right?

Belief in Jesus is requiredt in order to have God save us, correct?
Faith in Him not a work of ours, it is His gift to us.

 

[Agent47]

What is the purpose of bidding and not drawing seeing failure to do the latter nullifies the former? It actually amounts to a false offer; inviting you to a treat I have zero intention of serving

Analogous (not perfect) to this is inviting guests, say the the homeless, to a meal only to serve some

There is but one Cross, one Christ, one Way. There is one hope, one plan of redemption, and one offer to the world that whosoever comes may freely drink. That God bids all but draws some does not diminish grace, but instead heaps grace upon grace towards those who are being saved.
.

 

[Rippon]

Calvin executed women and children.

That is completely false. Start yet another thread it doesn't belong in this thread which will soon be closed anyway.

 

[TCassidy]

Best way to answer is to stick to the subject before needless digression

So you don't understand the atonement was given to God as our ransom, not "made available" to us. I suspected that may be the case.

So, again, the best way to get the right answer is to ask the right question. When you don't really understand the question you will never be able to understand the right answer.

 

[Agent47]

That is a mighty half-truth.

Why do you even need to hear the gospel, yet the wrath of God was satisfied in ~33AD?

Were you born born again?

So you don't understand the atonement was given to God as our ransom, not "made available" to us. I suspected that may be the case.

 

[JonC]

What is the purpose of bidding and not drawing seeing failure to do the latter nullifies the former? It actually amounts to a false offer; inviting you to a treat I have zero intention of serving

I don't understand the logic of your argument. Why would a provision for all not be legitimate unless all is drawn? The offer is not false at all, it is legitimate. That is the whole point, and the reason it can be said that Jesus is the Savior of all men. But out of those who do not come, some are persuaded. Which is the reason it can be said Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Analogous (not perfect) to this is inviting guests, say the the homeless, to a meal only to serve some

I think that the analogy is good, but it can be much more to our conversation:

You and I decide to feed all of the homeless in our city. We estimate and add to that the food needed. We prepare the place, have the room, have the food, and send out the invitation to the entire city. But no one comes. So we go out to the streets and persuade many to come, get out of the cold, and enjoy the meal. Is the offer to those who did not come less valid?