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Calvinists, what is the purpose of...
- Thread starter William C
- Start date
My answer is the same as it was then. We all believe the ultimate pupose in all things is to bring God glory. But really this is nothing more than your answer concerning prophecies. It really doesn't answer the question.
If one were to ask, "Why did Christ die on the cross," and you answer simply, "to bring God glory," you would be telling the truth, but you really wouldn't be answering the question. Glory did come to God just because his Son died, Glory came because of the fulfillment of the purpose for which Christ died.
Untrue. God tells us through scripture His purposeds in hiding the gospel in parables, hardened Israel and proclaming the gospel to all people. I'm just asking how Calvinists interpret those purposes.
Here are some questions:
If man is born total unable to see, hear, understand and believe why did God harden them making them unable to see, hear, understand and believe?
If man is unable to understand the gospel why did Jesus hide it in parables?
What is the purpose of inviting someone to come who cannot?
Yes He does and some of these "arrangments" seem to contradict the Calvinistic view of how God has chosen to deal with man. (i.e. the universal call, the redundancy of hardening, and the hiding of the gospel from people who can't understand it.)
Yes He has, its called hardening, not Total depravity.
I agree. In fact, I would say He was and still is in charge of all things.
Of course I think of being in charge of something as overseeing it and intervening when necessary, not as causing and controling all things.
ScottEmerson
Active Member
Potter and clay, huh?
Jeremiah 18 talks about GOd being the potter and we being the clay, but interestingly enough, what happens to a person is dependent upon his response to God's words! Don't believe it, read it yourself. Thanks for bringing that up!
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I know of no human being who came into this life with a blueprint that defines what he/she will be in the grand scheme of God's plan, EXCEPT Jesus an eternal being who temporarily became man!
Well, of course, we don't know our own blueprint, but that doesn't mean there isn't one:
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. (Psalm 139)
My days are all formed before I was, and they were already recorded in God's book. Sounds like a life "blueprint" to me.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Well, of course, we don't know our own blueprint, but that doesn't mean there isn't one:
Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. (Psalm 139)
My days are all formed before I was, and they were already recorded in God's book. Sounds like a life "blueprint" to me. </font>[/QUOTE]Poetic rather that factual, if you ask me dear Russell55!
I do not believe that God laid out my life to include the circumstances that I have experienced. Many of which are directly counter to scriptural teaching. If a blueprint existed, it certainly has not been followed.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Of course it's poetic. But it's a poetic expression of truth, is it not? Then what truth is David expressing in this poetic language? </font>[/QUOTE]God is the omniscient Creator.
Just a note: No one has really ever addressed the first post of this thread.
Let me repost my question for you all:
If men are totally depraved, what is the purpose of...
1. Hiding the gospel from them in parables? (Matt. 13)
2. Hardening their hearts? (John 12)
3. Calling them to repentance and faith? (Mk. 1)
Let me repost my question for you all:
If men are totally depraved, what is the purpose of...
1. Hiding the gospel from them in parables? (Matt. 13)
2. Hardening their hearts? (John 12)
3. Calling them to repentance and faith? (Mk. 1)
Oh, Ken, I'm sorry, did I miss the post where you or any one else attempted to address points 1-3. You touched on number 4 and Hardsheller made a general statement of the obvious in which we all agree in order to avoid the real question, but besides that no one has even attempted to explain God's purpose in (1) hiding the gospel from people who can't by their nature even understand it. (2) Harden people who were already born deaf, blind and unable to believe. And (3) Invite those who are unable to accept the invitation.
So, I'll keep waiting for someone to tackle this most insurmountable dilema for the Calvinistic dogma.
So, I'll keep waiting for someone to tackle this most insurmountable dilema for the Calvinistic dogma.
KenH
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter how anyone responds. We have been through this before. You will always say that no one has responded to your argument. You will always move the goal post. Yada, yada, yada. I ain't going down that road again. That game is old. If you were an honest debater I would answer your challenge, but your history in this forum has proven you are not.
See ya.
1 Cor. 1.18-23
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1 Corinthians 3:18 ¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 ¶Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
1 Corinthians 4:1 ¶Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7 ¶For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
2 Corinthians 4:1 ¶Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Bro. Dallas Eaton
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1 Corinthians 3:18 ¶Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 ¶Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
1 Corinthians 4:1 ¶Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
7 ¶For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
8 Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
2 Corinthians 4:1 ¶Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Bro. Dallas Eaton