Calvnism getting hammered lately on this board

[Iconoclast]

plain_n_simple;

I don't think Cals have been hammered, but challenged

.

Some on BB do offer a scriptural challenge. Their questions are responded to, line by line with verses offered back.

If a poster offers most every verse out of context and not really on topic...there is no place for a response as it becomes incoherent.
When so many verses are used out of context...it is as if no scripture was offered at all...because when the bible is misused so badly...it is not being used as it is intended to be.

But why would they accept every challenge? They are solid in their beliefs.

Most every Cal...as Brian has recently expressed would offer help to any who really want help. This is balanced by some scriptural commands;

Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
or here in 2 tim

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

And I have to acknowledge that Icon and a few others are very studious and quite the formidable foe in discussions. We all get a bit snippy and perhaps childish in responses, but that's debate on the net. I would not count it a victory because Cals are not vocal

.

P/S.....we should all be here seeking for truth and interacting in a positive way. Wrong ideas need to be exposed when they show up...by scripture used correctly and in context.

If you notice...when most of the cals do answer with scripture in this way...the other person goes away for several days as they cannot respond, except to accuse the people . Just keep watching for that as you go over the posts...:wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

plain_n_simple;


Some on BB do offer a scriptural challenge. Their questions are responded to, line by line with verses offered back.

If a poster offers most every verse out of context and not really on topic...there is no place for a response

In real life this is where we are in the john 12 discusison -

Your complaints against John 12:32 were completely resolved here #102
Then your next argument that Paul teaches salvation by works in Romans 2 was exposed here #105

After which you basically vacated the field .

How is it that when your solution runs aground on the facts of scripture -- this is "my fault"??

Rather it is up to you to improve your position so you are not so squarely opposing scripture.

obviously.

I have provided other links on this thread to real life examples rather than simply offering polemics about how I wished reality had been.

for example

As for my posts - I have noted that it is true "in general" that when I get a "taking my toys and going home " response from Calvinists - as their solution to some irrefutable Bible texts I present to them , (texts that don't fit well in Calvinism) -- I have just found a gold mine "irrefutable" argument - one that they cannot answer "sola scriptura" so they are choosing "the other option" in those cases.

A perfect example of that is #12

.

I appreciate that you are expressing your opinions but at some point actual facts - real links to actual events become significant.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

I do not believe nor ever said that Paul teaches salvation by works .
Romans the way you were misusing it so badly .....you were suggesting a works salvation that's what I said .
your total misunderstanding of the verse made it seem as if you're using it to say that the Gentiles can be saved by works that was what you were suggesting if you read the post.

your repeated lie about I say that Romans two teaches works salvation was over already refuted and post 106 so why you deliberately lie I I suspect you have nothing else to say.

 

[Yeshua1]

"Who will not be corrected by scripture" and then -- oh wait when you do have scripture I cannot answer - well then that is "proof-texting".

That is a run-away strategy folks.

I am asking why the Calvinist position is in such overt rapid retreat. It can be seen as they abandon thread after thread - and turn a blind eye to irrefutable text list after irrefutable text list.

I do not recall Calvinists on this board in the past using such full scale retreat tactics.

What has happened here???

The truth is that if you keep scripture out of the thread - Calvinists in retreat may not be so inclined to flee the thread.

The truth on all of thise from you is NOT how we adress the questions posed to calvinists here, but to you on this all important fact...

Do you hold that we are saved as held by the Gospel of SDA, or by the Gospel of Christ?

 

[BobRyan]

I do not believe nor ever said that Paul teaches salvation by works .
Romans the way you were misusing it so badly .....you were suggesting a works salvation that's what I said .
.

I merely quoted part of the chapter. Your response on that thread did not identify a single statement in my post where I misspoke regarding Romans 2 - and we both know it. Rather you simply condemned the entire post - Romans 2 quote and all, limiting yourself to vagaries and general sweeping claims -- no details to support it. And if that satisfies you well then to each his own. I am simply saying that it "exists" - the response was conclusive on my part and you settled for non-factual complaints.

A mere quote of the text was sufficient to give rise to your strong objection to it.

But here again - to each his own.

 

[Iconoclast]

I merely quoted part of the chapter. Your response on that thread did not identify a single statement in my post where I misspoke regarding Romans 2 - and we both know it. Rather you simply condemned the entire post - Romans 2 quote and all, limiting yourself to vagaries and general sweeping claims -- no details to support it. And if that satisfies you well then to each his own. I am simply saying that it "exists" - the response was conclusive on my part and you settled for non-factual complaints.
A mere quote of the text was sufficient to give rise to your strong objection to it.

But here again - to each his own.

Nice try....but I went an reread it.....I clearly stated that it does not teach salvation by works.....and when you bolded the part about Hebrews 8 you were saying that even without special revelation the gentiles would mystical ly be guided into keeping the law...
are you incapable of truth?
All of that being said....you are trying to sneak away from your empty usage of Jn 12...which you still cannot explain......

I am away from a computer at the moment if I have time later on I'll pull up the quote I'll show you exactly what was said exactly how you implied or with teaching a works salvation on the part of the Gentiles
how that's totally out to lunch and you have no comprehension of the verses you are piecing together as a patchwork quilt theology that doesn't hold any water

 

[Yeshua1]

I merely quoted part of the chapter. Your response on that thread did not identify a single statement in my post where I misspoke regarding Romans 2 - and we both know it. Rather you simply condemned the entire post - Romans 2 quote and all, limiting yourself to vagaries and general sweeping claims -- no details to support it. And if that satisfies you well then to each his own. I am simply saying that it "exists" - the response was conclusive on my part and you settled for non-factual complaints.

A mere quote of the text was sufficient to give rise to your strong objection to it.

But here again - to each his own.

So we are made right with God apart from ANY works of the flesh, which would include keeping the Sabbath then?

 

[BobRyan]

I don't think Cals have been hammered, but challenged. But why would they accept every challenge? l.

Certainly they would not need to accept challenges if they don't want to.

I was just commenting that the participation level on the currently active threads was limited to a very few Calvinists and most were not active.

I don't recall that being the norm before - but maybe it is the new normal.

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Nice try....but I went an reread it.....I clearly stated that it does not teach salvation by works.

If we can both agree that Paul is not teaching Salvation by works just because the text may not fit a certain Calvinist POV -- I am more than happy with that.

....and when you bolded the part about Hebrews 8 you were saying that even without special revelation the gentiles would mystical ly be guided

What Hebrews 8 verse did you mean? Is it Heb 8 or Romans 2 that you are interested/debating? In any case feel free to go to that link and make a point along those lines.

I am away from a computer at the moment if I have time later on I'll pull up the quote I'll show you exactly what was said exactly how you implied or with teaching a works salvation on the part of the Gentiles

Good idea. Go to that link and make the case.

I will respond "to the details" there, as long as they are made in the text, I tend to let "commentary" go if it is just opinion posting because I think everyone has a right to their opinions.

As of now it is my understanding that -
Your complaints against John 12:32 were completely resolved here #102
Then your next argument against Romans 2 was exposed here #105

If there is some detail in those posts that is not correct - please refer to it with quotes - on that thread and I will read it and respond.

Just as I have done whenever applicable quotes are provided on a given subject.
A perfect example of that is #12

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

BobRyan

If we can both agree that Paul is not teaching Salvation by works just because the text may not fit a certain Calvinist POV -- I am more than happy with that.

I imagine you would be but I do not agree with you as I suspect you also have no desire to be honest when confronted,,,,you asked for it, here it comes friend:thumbs:

What Hebrews 8 verse did you mean? Is it Heb 8 or Romans 2 that you are interested/debating?

If you cannot even remember what you posted how are you sure that I did not respond....I will refresh your memory

In any case - nobody here seriously believes that nature and the Holy Spirit do not have access to your eskimo.

And the drawing of God - "enables choice" -- he may not have a full blue print but according to Romans 2 "he does INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law" rather than "by written instruction".

I suggested an answer that you ignored-Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Romans 2 leaves him condemned...as his conscience allows him to do some of the works of the law, but the works of the law cannot save him...he is still guilty and condemned.....

I thought this was clear enough
[some of the works of the law]
[but the works of the law cannot save him]
[he is still guilty and condemned]

to which your reply was you were going to school me...lol

Ok a remedial on Romans 2 it is.

Recall that we are establishing the fact that God is telling the "truth" when He claims to "Convict the World of Sin and righteousness and judgment"

No we were not discussing that....we were discussing jn 12:32...not jn 16, or romans 2...or rev 3:laugh:

and also to "draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32

-

now you mention the verse,then try and distract again-

and "STAND at the door and knock" Rev 3

This verse is Jesus speaking to people already in the church....not all men everywhere...

In any case feel free to go to that link and make a point along those lines.

So far you offer nothing to respond to...this is fluff.

Good idea. Go to that link and make the case.

I will respond "to the details" there, as long as they are made in the text, I tend to let "commentary" go if it is just opinion posting because I think everyone has a right to their opinions.

you say nothing here.....:sleeping_2:
now you say this....

Next we see the NEW Covenant promise of the LAW written on the heart in Heb 8 found in Romans 2 for the gentiles who have no Bible at all.[/QUOTE]

you clearly say that the gentiles...WHO HAVE NO BIBLE AT ALL ARE made partakers of the new covenant.

Paul does not say that...YOU DO....No person in church history makes such a claim.
They have never heard of Jesus...so in your theory...what saves them??
Doing the works of the law?????
You said in bold print.....the law written on the heart...for the gentiles who have no bible??????

What are you talking about?

Romans 2 is primarily a rebuke to Jews who had the law and did not obey

That's what romans 2 is about...not the nonsense you offer...

So...not only have you abused romans 2....you still have nothing positive on your wrong jn 12 theory....no support at all....so much for your remedial on romans 2:laugh:

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?

22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?

23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is wri

 

[BobRyan]

Since you choose not to have the discussion on the thread where we were discussing it -- I will respond here.

I suggested an answer that you ignored-Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Romans 2 leaves him condemned...as his conscience allows him to do some of the works of the law, but the works of the law cannot save him...he is still guilty and condemned.....

Which is a nice "quote of you" instead of the actual text of scripture.

I was hoping for a point that is made in the actual text of scripture.

There are more than enough "popes" -- and I think we all know that is true.

to which your reply was you were going to school me...lol

I prefer the actual text of scripture -- as it turns out.

now you say this....

you clearly say that the gentiles...WHO HAVE NO BIBLE AT ALL ARE made partakers of the new covenant.

Paul does not say that...YOU DO....No person in church history makes such a claim.

Your bible-avoidance method of addressing Romans 2 is not the convincing solution you seem to have at first imagined it to be.

Quote the actual text please to make your case - so far you settle for pontification. I have no doubt that you have your own speculative ideas - but can you show your point "in the actual text"???

They have never heard of Jesus...so in your theory...what saves them??
Doing the works of the law?????
You said in bold print.....the law written on the heart...for the gentiles who have no bible??????

Will you at last quote the actual text???

At some point??

to make some sort of sound Bible argument??

What are you talking about?

Romans 2 is primarily a rebuke to Jews who had the law and did not obey

That's what romans 2 is about...not the nonsense you offer...

Since you avoid the text of Romans and almost every detail in the chapter so far it is difficult to see where you make a point stick.

Are we supposed to be convinced by "pontification alone"???

So...not only have you abused romans 2....you still have nothing positive

So far you make all your points about romans 2 by entirely ignoring the details IN the text.

So then - remedial Romans 2 ... next.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Notice I provide much more the Romans 2 text to show how it refutes Calvinism -- I don't limit my response to "quoting myself" in Romans 2 - the points I make about Romans 2 are IN Romans 2.

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Christ said "I will draw ALL to ME" - that includes your eskimo friend.

The Holy Spirit convicts "the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" according to Christ - in John 16 -- that includes your eskimo friend.

Romans 1 says that your eskimo is "without excuse" because the "invisible attributes of God have been CLEARLY seen in the things that have been MADE" and it is so clear that when violating God's Law even the pagans know that they deserve judgment - according to Paul in Romans 1.

And in Romans 2 we have your eskimo friend "doing instinctively the things of the Law SHOWING the work of the Law written on the heart... in the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge" Rom 2:13-16.

you ask if an "angel" would need to visit the lost instead of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit "visits him" according to John 16.

IS God the Holy Spirit "insufficient for the task" in your view?

you ask if the lost invent the entire Bible Gospel story so that they can be "drawn" and enabled to "choose"

Nope. Read Romans 10 and Romans 1 - Paul argues in both places that nature itself is "sufficient" in combination with God the Holy Spirit - to convict him of sin and draw him to Christ.

But Paul does not go to your extreme of insisting that only with the level of "detail" found in the Bible can the Holy Spirit's work be done.

In any case - nobody here seriously believes that nature and the Holy Spirit do not have access to your eskimo.

And the drawing of God - "enables choice" -- he may not have a full blue print but according to Romans 2 "he does INSTINCTIVELY the things of the Law" rather than "by written instruction".

If you read three chapters in Romans starting with Romans 1 and 2, then Romans 10 Paul pretty much spells it out for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
3] I know How Christ was at work in the OT. You suggest this because you have no verses or truth to offer to support your idea...we will see that once again shortly:thumbs: So you hope to go off topic so no one see's your idea is a failed one right from the beginning.


If no one brings the word of God to our eskimo friend...he dies and goes in to second death.

you were trying to read Romans 2 and Romans 10 -- but apparently your attempt did not succeed in mastering the details of those two chapters. I will quote them for you again later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast
Romans 2 leaves him condemned...as his conscience allows him to do some of the works of the law, but the works of the law cannot save him...he is still guilty and condemned.....

you ask your readers to "imagine" that there is no success examples for both Jews and Gentiles mentioned by Paul in Romans - no gospel solution -- yet "the text" refutes the wild speculation you propose. Note "the details"

Ok a remedial on Romans 2 it is.

Recall that we are establishing the fact that God is telling the "truth" when He claims to "Convict the World of Sin and righteousness and judgment" and also to "draw ALL unto ME" John 12:32 -- and "STAND at the door and knock" Rev 3

Never do I make the nonsensical proposal that the lost must first be saved then later drawn.

I think we both know that.

In Romans 2 where you imagine no success cases at all for the gentiles - Paul shows that under the Gospel some Gentiles are lost - and some are saved just as is the case with the Jews.


=============================================
Romans 2

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

this chapter is in the context of the "Kindness of God" and of "repentance"

6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;


Next we see the NEW Covenant promise of the LAW written on the heart in Heb 8 found in Romans 2 for the gentiles who have no Bible at all.



13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


In that last verse above we find "Gospel" Judgment - not "no Gospel at all" as some have imagined.


And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In that quote above we find the example of saved Gentiles who condemn those Jews that are lost and the work of the Holy Spirit on the saved - both Jew and Gentile - which is how the gentiles ended up with the Romans 2:13-16 Law of God written on their hearts - in true New Covenant fashion.


"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31


==============================================

Were we simply 'not supposed to notice'?? Surely you knew we would 'notice' these details in Romans 2 and 3:31 and Hebrews 8.

I am advocating the obvious point that Paul is telling the truth in Romans 2.

=============================================
Romans 2

...

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


In that last verse above we find "Gospel" Judgment - not "no Gospel at all" as some have imagined.


And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In that quote above we find the example of saved Gentiles who condemn those Jews that are lost and the work of the Holy Spirit on the saved - both Jew and Gentile - which is how the gentiles ended up with the Romans 2:13-16 Law of God written on their hearts - in true New Covenant fashion.


"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

Romans 2 demonstrates the very Gospel point you claim does not exist when it comes to your eskimo example - and so now to oppose the Bible on that point - you call Paul's Romans 2 teaching "works based salvation" as if I wrote the chapter and you are free to abuse it

 

[BobRyan]

You object to the Gospel as Paul presents it in Romans 2 (highlighted in red" in the quote above for all to see the glaringly obvious point - so then you blame Romans 2 on me -- as if I wrote it!

How sad - that solution.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible says "I STAND at the door and knock - IF anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I will come in" Rev 3

It never says "and such would be salvation by works"

In Calvinism there is no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11 no matter what the Bible says to the contrary because in Calvinism the way that the lost person is saved is that first "HE comes to His OWN" those whom He abitrarily selects out from among the lost - causes "His own" to be born again - regenerated - THEN compels them to accept the Gospel for they are already regenerate - already born-again already saved, already the New Creation old things passed away all things become new.

In that form of Calvinism - no such thing as "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1:11

=========================

Both Romans 10 and Rev 3 are stated in the form of a "response" to the choice that man makes.

God "Draw all mankind unto Him" John 12:32.

God "convicts the World of sin and righteousness and justice" John 16.

God "knocks on the door" such that if "ANYONE" hears and opens the door - He will come in.

God sends Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1 John 2:2.

A devastating case in actual scripture -that Calvinism does not appear to survive.

you are randomly abusing every text you look at.JN 16 does not teach that our eskimo friend gets a visit by the Holy Spirit. .

Sadly for your hopeful-speculation John 16 is clearly talking about the "world" and the eskimo example you gave is of someone in that World. Hence you avoid every detail in the actual text of John 16 to argue against it.

The mere quote of it is sufficient to give rise to your strong objection to it.

John 16
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

How sad for Calvinism then that when you claim there is nothing God is doing for that Eskimo example of yours - the Bible refutes that speculation, and how good for that Eskimo -

 

[Iconoclast]

BobRyan



As I suspected you lack honesty and cannot deal with a Christian ethic. I showed where you offered a bogus , magical , works based idea for gentile salvation. you ignore it completely. You even questioned that it was you who offered Hebrews 8...and you did.....

The discussion is about your failure to support jn 12: 32...the thread was not an exposition of romans 2. I did give the portion of romans 2 that shows what paul was teaching but you still cannot understand it....instead you repeat your clown like posts then wonder why no one takes you serious.

Since you choose not to have the discussion on the thread where we were discussing it -- I will respond here.

No one is going to go back to a closed thread. Your response is no response but ignoring what I offered you.
I understand....I did not claim to have a vision like your prophetess so you cannot read it with understanding...

Which is a nice "quote of you" instead of the actual text of scripture.
I was hoping for a point that is made in the actual text of scripture.
There are more than enough "popes" -- and I think we all know that is true.
I prefer the actual text of scripture -- as it turns out.
Your bible-avoidance method of addressing Romans 2 is not the convincing solution you seem to have at first imagined it to be.
Quote the actual text please to make your case - so far you settle for pontification. I have no doubt that you have your own speculative ideas - but can you show your point "in the actual text"???
Will you at last quote the actual text???
At some point??to make some sort of sound Bible argument??
Since you avoid the text of Romans and almost every detail in the chapter so far it is difficult to see where you make a point stick.
Are we supposed to be convinced by "pontification alone"???
So far you make all your points about romans 2 by entirely ignoring th

e details IN the text.[/QUOTE]

Then you quote your foolish posting of out of context verses. That is why no one even reads your posts now:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

You object to the Gospel as Paul presents it in Romans 2 (highlighted in red" in the quote above for all to see the glaringly obvious point - so then you blame Romans 2 on me -- as if I wrote it!

no need to lie...I do not blame romans 2 on anyone....

you still do not understand romans 2.....

Next we see the NEW Covenant promise of the LAW written on the heart in Heb 8 found in Romans 2 for the gentiles who have no Bible at all.



13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

this is not the gospel.....

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan
As I suspected you lack honesty and cannot deal with a Christian ethic.

no text to make your point it is all polemic, all vitriol, mere pontification -- why keep doing that?.

I showed where you offered a bogus , magical , works based idea for gentile salvation.

No I offered quotes from actual Bible texts - you responded with nothing but vitriol, and pontification. If you don't want to deal with the texts just say so.

You even questioned that it was you who offered Hebrews 8.

I have not quoted Heb 8 ... nor have you.. But you insert it into your vitriol as if this is helping your argument to attack Heb 8 along with Romans 2.

Rather I point to the "details" in Romans 2 that align with Heb 8.

The discussion is about your failure to support jn 12: 32

The discussion was about your attack against john 12 where you argue that it cannot mean what it says - I show actual exegesis in explaining how the statement made in John 12 is supported in scripture.

Your nonsensical response was that to show how this fits in the rest of scripture is not the right way to oppose John 12. I don't doubt your opposition to it - I simply point out that it fits with the rest of scripture.

I did give the portion of romans 2 that shows what paul was teaching

You were not serious about romans 2 and had to make your entire case by ignoring the chapter almost completely. We already saw that.

No one is going to go back to a closed thread.

I just added another post on that thread about 40 minutes ago. #149

it was closed??

It is not closed even now.


Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

[BobRyan

no text to make your point it is all polemic, all vitriol, mere pontification -- why keep doing that?.

you offer nothing to respond to...I did not need to make any point...your posts are incoherent....no vitriol....no need to lie.

No I offered quotes from actual Bible texts

-
quoting verses out of context....does nothing..

I have not quoted Heb 8 ... nor have you..

the discussion has nothing to do with it. When you failed to support jn 12...I guess you had to try something....

Rather I point to the "details" in Romans 2 that align with Heb 8.

not at all...only in your mind.

The discussion was about your attack against john 12 where you argue that it cannot mean what it says

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I know what jn 12 means...you do not.I do not need to attack jn 12...I am okay with the teaching.

I show actual exegesis in explaining how the statement made in John 12 is supported in scripture.

you have not done so at all.

Your nonsensical response

because you cannot grasp it does not make anything nonsensical

You were not serious about romans 2 and had to make your entire case by ignoring the chapter almost completely. We already saw that.

anyone who reads romans 2 understands what it is about, except for you evidently...the portion I offered explains itself...to Christian readers.

 

[Iconoclast]

You object to the Gospel as Paul presents it in Romans 2 (highlighted in red" in the quote above for all to see the glaringly obvious point - so then you blame Romans 2 on me -- as if I wrote it!

How sad - that solution.

I guess you have been drinking tea????


Tea and coffee drinking is a sin, an injurious indulgence, which like other evils, injures the soul." (Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 425, written in 1896).

As ludicrous as it seems today, Ellen White specifically stated that tea, as a beverage, "loosens tongues" and contributes to gossip: "When these tea and coffee users meet together for social entertainment, the effects of their pernicious habit are manifest. All partake freely of the favorite beverages, and as the stimulating influence is felt, their tongues are loosened, and they begin the wicked work of talking against others." (Counsels on Diet and Foods, p. 423, written in 1890

Is that why you twist my posts?:laugh::laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

You object to the Gospel as Paul presents it in Romans 2 (highlighted in red" in the quote above for all to see the glaringly obvious point - so then you blame Romans 2 on me -- as if I wrote it!

How sad - that solution.

or..do you also struggle with vinegar?
"I had indulged the desire for vinegar. But I resolved with the help of God to overcome this appetite. I fought the temptation, determined not to be mastered by this habit. For weeks I was very sick; but I kept saying over and over, The Lord knows all about it. If I die, I die; but I will not yield to this desire. The struggle continued, and I was sorely afflicted for many weeks. All thought that it was impossible for me to live. You may be sure we sought the Lord very earnestly. The most fervent prayers were offered for my recovery. I continued to resist the desire for vinegar, and at last I conquered. Now I have no inclination to taste anything of the kind. This experience has been of great value to me in many ways. I obtained a complete victory." (Ellen G. White, letter 70, 1911, reproduced in Counsels on Diet and Foods, page 485).