Can a believer sin?

Amen! Amen!

 

I got a feeling I know why there will be tears in you two fellows eyes. Some are going to get many lashes and I figure you two will be in the front of the line. :laugh:

 

Hebrews 12:13-17
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


Please explain this warning. To whom is it addressed? what is the "penalty" for not "making straight paths', not following peace", not looking diligently", etc.

How is God's taking away his blessing not an act of chastening? I ususlly cried when I got a whipping.

 

You may be right. Though I think you will be tied up together with us for punishment.

 

How can conditional promises be unconditional? All of these promises have conditions attached. What if you fail to meet the conditions?

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 2:11-12
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Will God just say, "Psyche! I was just kidding. What I meant to say is that everyone gets to enjoy the benefits of obedience, suffering, righteous living, etc. whether they really deserve it or not! And no one really gets 'judged' at the 'judgment seat'. No one gets reckoned with at the time of reckoning. It all hapened in this life during the age of grace."

1 Timothy 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.

 

I will gladly tell you, but you may not like my answer.
The Epistle to the Hebrews was written to...."the Hebrews" An astonishing fact!
A good many of this group of Hebrews were walking a fine line. They were unsaved, convicted about being saved, but thinking seriously about going back to their Judaistic roots, that is, returning to Judaism. Thus throughout the epistle you have a contrast of the Old Covenant to the New Covenant; a better covenant, a new covenant, etc. Throughout are contrasts between the OT and the NT. Most of these warnings are given to Jews thinking of returning to Judaism. For that reason they are often taken out of context and misunderstood by many.

If you remember the Jews were bitter against the Lord, and especially against Christianity. Just look at the life of Saul for an example. Thus Paul warns against this root of bitterness. It would cause them to return to what basically is a false religion now. Instead they must follow holiness--that is the Lord Jesus Christ. He alone can give one a holy standing, and cause one to grow in holiness (a process we call sanctification).
He then gives them an OT example that they can relate to--the example of Esau. Esau was a worldly man who sold his birthright for a morsel of bread. Salvation is far too important a matter then to trade it for an out-moded system of animal sacrifices. They wouldn't do them any good now. They would be selling themselves short. They would be allowing their bitterness to get in the way, just as Esau became bitter and allowed his bitterness to get in the way of repentance.

 

2 Ti 3:16 All SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for REPROOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

Right that is.:thumbs:

 

Yeah. Those who are weeping and gnashing their teeth are ecstatic.

 

Speak for yourself. I won't be gnashing any teeth. That's not what happens to believers.

 

Amen to that! That's for the damned!

Sounds real good. What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the lake of fire! That bunch of junk is not even worth considering!

 

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Hebrew Christians. Just like Ephesians was written to Ephesian Christians and Corinthians was written to Corinthian Christians. Very weak argument to get out from under the warnings in any of those books.

That's a nice story. Any evidence from the text? And even if you are correct, are you willing to live with the conclusions of such an argument?

That if you are a Hebrew, and "sorta saved" but maybe still a little Jewish, that you get saved by making straight paths for your feet, by following peace with all men, and holiness, or by looking diligently? That Esau's example only applies to Hebrew sorta-christians and the rest of us need not worry about being a fornicator or a profane person?

Does a Hebrew sorta-christian the only one who has to add all these things to the blood of Christ or are their some other groups that God also singles out like this?

 

And I posted this in reply, and debunked, along with the tektonics site, this caricature of Irenaeus, presented by an athiest, as well. And I quote, so as to try and not 'mess up' the fonts, but am editing a couple of words for spelling.

You first quoted this:

As I stated, before, this is only a partial quote from an athiest, who was wanting to cast a "bad light" on Irenaeus. Here is the tektonics site, that has some good information on this, and goes a long way to debunking the claims of the skeptic, who goes by the handle of " skepticbud".

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/irey50.html

And here is more of the actual quote of Irenaeus, from which "skepticbud" only took a part, for the purpose of casting a "bad light" on Irenaeus, as I mentioned, as well.

My (substantive) posts on this subject are on this thread (I'm starting to sound like Lou M., here ), and don't really intend to, but have to defend my position, IMO.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=40981&page=8

They are posts # 10, 29. 46, 47, 57, 67, 70, 72, 74, 75, and 78.

And as a matter of a few corrections, it was you and not I, who was the first one to bring both Augustine (post # 42) and Origen (post # 45) onto that thread. Last time I checked, #45 came before #72, numerically.
And I mentioned Origen in post # 46, which commented on the lineage of a-millennialism, as in this thread, from Origen to Augustine.

I will take the credit or blame for bringing Marcion, the Heretic, into the discussion.

Oh yeah, One final bit. Since I've had to, once again {Sigh!} , correct your history lesson (X), what was that you were saying about -

????? Maybe you would like to repeat that (I know I loved hearing it! ), since it really does sound so good, and also sounded a bit like someone making a self-admission.

Ed

 

Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethen, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 2 Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this DOCTRINE, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed; 2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

This thread can now be closed (thankfully) due to its length.