Can a Calvinist know for sure?

Hello philg.

GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love... What's it to do with us if some claim to have faith but have no deeds the Church no longer teaches that Christ died for our sins. How can the Church be strong when it denies it's very essence, Christ died for us and it is finished? 1 Cor 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. This man discovered that He was loved with an everlasting love though no fruit was visible.

PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
How does that help your case? The world perished without hearing while the Jews were being punished with deafness.

All are sinners and incapable. Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
It is by grace that we are saved so no one can boast.

I don't it was not me that bought it up. I'll use the one above. Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

john.

 

It will be difficult to get an honest objective answer to this from a 5 point Calvinist because of the problem it puts them in - so take that as a "given".

The problem you point out above only exists for 3 and 5 point Calvinists that actually hold to some form of the Bible teaching on Perseverance.

Their "illogical" response will be to ignore the problem of perseverance altogether and simply say "yes we can have assurance because the Bible says so".

That is the kind of mind-numbing response that you get when "no answer" is the only answer they find.

Clearly the Bible says we can have assurance - becuase the bible does NOT teach Calvinism!!

The point you make above is illustrated in the OP post on this C/A area regarding Heb 6. There you see the words of Calvin himself pointing out the fact that the claim of the lost and their experience is every bit the same as for the saved.

This is the problem - they can not "be assured" of salvation until they SEE that ten years from today they do not FAIL to persevere. So they HOPE that they will and then call that "assurance" for today!!

But they will be quick to point to anyone TODAY that fAILS to persevere EVEN though they TOO professed assurance TEN YEARS AGO in that SAME HOPE!!

This is obvious and simple and blatant. And it would be basic honesty to address th point head on.

Lets see if they did it.

Hmmm.

How "surprising".

In Christ,

Bob

 

This does not answer that answer the question as to why God must blind totally depraved people from the truth lest they believe. Tell me why he must do this and then I will be glad to comment on this verse.

Again, so what is the purpose of the blinding?

 

GAL 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love... What's it to do with us if some claim to have faith but have no deeds the Church no longer teaches that Christ died for our sins. How can the Church be strong when it denies it's very essence, Christ died for us and it is finished? 1 Cor 5:5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. This man discovered that He was loved with an everlasting love though no fruit was visible.</font>[/QUOTE]The bible says " by their fruits you shall know them.
1 cor 5:5 is talking about a man who is involved in willful and habitual sin.

 

So you reject the Bible teaching on perseverance? Notice all the "IF you persevere FIRM until the END" statements of scripture and consider how one might get around them.

4 point Calvinist?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello philg.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." He does not just leave us incapable but is active in our reprobation. We are incapable because God makes us so.

So Peter wasn't saved then? David wasn't saved and so on.

It shows a man in open sin who is saved anyway yes? Is that not so? He is taken out of the picture by being removed to Heaven.
All are sinners and incapable. Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
And God causes that. Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

But He does cause the blinding as you say.

john.

 

Here's what perseverance looks like:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." - Phil 2:12-13

In other words, it looks like a work ("work out your own salvation"), and it looks like resting ("it is God who works in you"). If God is working in you how will it not be seen by others? When others see your good works they should give glory to your Father in Heaven. Why? Because your good works are really His good work in you coming out.

Works without faith cannot save. Faith without works cannot save.

Does that help?

 

Hello Roy.

You say you are a Pastor of a Church. Is it your normal method in discussion to call people that disagree with you liars?

john.

 

It will be difficult to get an honest objective answer to this from a 5 point Calvinist because of the problem it puts them in - so take that as a "given".

The problem you point out above only exists for 3 and 5 point Calvinists that actually hold to some form of the Bible teaching on Perseverance.
[/QUOTE]

WILL THE MISLEADING PLEASE STOP!!

This kills me about this forum. We have all these people that knows what i think and shares to the world...my thoughts..and never ask me.

If you want to know why i believe in salvation is forever..ask me. Do not tell me the only reason i believe it is because it is in a calvin book...or because it is the only way i can believe..based on my views on election and and mans sin nature.

All my views are based on the BIBLE. We may not see things the same, but do not say a calvin is a nobrainer following of mans logic. It maybe for some..i have no idea. But I for one..and everyone that i know that holds to election...places this under the fine looking glass of Gods Word.

It is fine for you to say that i misread a passage. For i will blame you of the same thing. But do not say Perseverance is a given...not to me. Everything most go though the test of God Word.

Never believe for this is the only way it makes sence!!! This will turn into MANS LOGIC over FAITH. At some point i may not understand...yet if the Bible says it...i must believe it.

therefore .....
in the beginning God means...In the beginning God
God is holy means....God is holy
God is over all creation means...God is over all creation
Born in sin means...born in sin.
dead in sins....means dead in sins
the darkness did not understand the light means...the darkness did not understand the light means
none is good means....none is good.
no not one means...no not one.
no one seeks God..means no one seeks God
election means....election
Grace means.....Grace
God so loved the world means...God so love the world.
Whosoever will may come means.... whosoever will may come.
redemption means....redemption
atonement of sins.....means covering sins
propitiation means....propitiation
sealed by God.....means sealed by God.

all of these i believe...just as recorded in Gods word. I believe them ONLY for they are there. They take on the meaning of the context where you find them. CONTEXT is KING is my pet saying. Context rules of one wrod or one passage. This IS how i read Gods Word sir. If calvin says it...big deal...calvin is only a man. But if calvin says it and it can past the test of the Bible...great...calvin was a good writer....and can say it better than I.

The Bible is what I follow. Not mans logic as you suggest. I have many many verses that cover my study on the doctrine of salvation.

The big battle always comes down to this....
election.....or freewill

i can show you this dear sir...election/chosen/called many times over...is in the Bible

I use it in context as i find it. I do not change the word from one story to the next. Now you can twist election anyway you want to fit your understanding. but it is there dear friend.

So now it is my time to handly this the right way. I will not tell you what YOU think. I will ask you to prove your thoughts.

Now i ask you this one thing.

Can you show me a verse...just one verse with freewill in it?
Not God calling man....but mans "freewill".

Not before the fall...after the fall

not ...
"well God says this...so logic is this..."


one verse....one word...freewill

you may claim...
But we have other words that are not in the Bible. Yes but we see verses showing this fact...it is not named so we name it. Like...rapture....not in the Bible....but a event happens..not named...we place a name on it.

God in 3 persons...in the Bible..the word is not there...we name

There is no event...of freewill of man free to chose anything..other then in the garden.

one verse (event)....one word...freewill

Thanks....

In Christ...James

 

The "work out" is to "exercise" your salvation, not to maintain it from being lost. I "work out" my arms to grow them or keep what muscle I have, not to prevent my arms from falling off.

Right on number one, wrong on number two. Faith ALONE in Jesus Christ DOES save!

 

The "work out" is to "exercise" your salvation, not to maintain it from being lost. I "work out" my arms to grow them or keep what muscle I have, not to prevent my arms from falling off.

Right on number one, wrong on number two. Faith ALONE in Jesus Christ DOES save! </font>[/QUOTE]Yes webdog,

This is told of the believe after salvation. James is full of works...for those that are saved.

Can i ask you to consided this......

not just...
Works is not for salvation nor is it to keep salvation. and...
Works are to show our love for him.

but this too...

Works before salvation is the problem...not the answer. Before salvation works has no value...they are worthless. Yet this is what man places his hope and faith..in the GOOD things he has done. How many times have you seen on TV a mother telling about he son that was just picked up for killing 4 people...trashing cars...burning houses...and kicking the dog...say this...

"he is really not that bad."

The reason...mom looks at the good deeds and says...there is some good in there. All can say they have done some good. Hitler made the VW bug..that is good. Some live a life of doing Good deeds...yet never have faith in the Good God.

But look at the heart...that is what God sees

Good works does not show man choosing God. This shows man coming to God in his own way...the way of cain. We all have a need to worship. We worship what we love.

In the book of james....james is saying

show me your love!!! if you have faith...you will show it.

Man does not have a love for the ture God. He wants to love God..and keep part of himself. Part of himself in this case is his works..for he sees this as Good....or value. Man cannot serve two masters

God says his works..even his good works.. are unclean and not fit for God.

Freewill means man can come to God in the only way that God will let man come him. will man seek a god? yes. the god of works...or other gods. Will man seek the ture God? NO

Again...Works do not help...
Gods love is all that helps...
then we work showing our love for him.


In Christ...James

 

James, We agree on the works part.

What is the only way God allows man to come to him? Faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. How does one have faith (notice I said "have faith" and not "given" faith)? By hearing and the drawing of the Holy Spirit. How does one hear? This is where you, I and the rest of God's children come in.

I have not problem with noone will seek God...

 

What is the only way God allows man to come to him? Faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. How does one have faith (notice I said "have faith" and not "given" faith)? By hearing and the drawing of the Holy Spirit. How does one hear? This is where you, I and the rest of God's children come in.

I have not problem with noone will seek God... </font>[/QUOTE]yes i agree webdog....with this..

" How does one have faith (notice I said "have faith" and not "given" faith)? By hearing and the drawing of the Holy Spirit. How does one hear? This is where you, I and the rest of God's children come in."

This should be upheld more then anything by both sides. I'm sorry to say that many do not...in word or action. some say it...but do not "do it". Some say there is no need to "do it"..for God will do it. Both are wrong. One is crazy..the other lazy.

now to other things you said...

you say...faith...comes by hearing....i agree
you say...hearing comes from us sharing....i agree
did God die for all?...you say yes....i say yes
Did God invite all to come to him?...you say yes...i say yes.
does man come? i say no...you say no

then how is he saved?

well...we go back to US sharing the gospel.

When we share Gods word...it is God sharing himself. The holy Spirit lives in us as believers...bring others in our lives. The holy spirit tells us what to say...so this is God sharing. Also..we are told not to just wait for them to come...but to go and tell. again..this is God...for God lives with in us. I still think we are on the same page.

now add this...

Mr goodguy...goes to church...knows the message...knows who God is for he has heard....even has SOME faith in god.... has understands...but never trust in God fully. When the Bible says faith..it means all faith...or calling GOD fro who he is..GOD. We can say God is good...and have Faith in Gods goodness. But faith in God...means Faith...in that he is GOD. in ful control...one we worship..and obey.

Is it because mr goodguy did not understand the words? he will not give up something..he will not give up his WILL...to call him lord.

the battle....Gods will...or mr goodguys will.

satan is like this too. I will....I will....that is satan.
He knows of God and his knowing comes from hearing and being there..understanding..who God is...he has some faith in God...but he is not willing to give up his WILL. satan knows of Gods power. satan knows he will lose. this is a part of faith..by know something about God. But this is not faith as the Bible sees it. But satan can not give up his WILL to place all faith in God.

now to china...mr NotKnow. NotKnow has never heard of the true God. This tells us that we should GO. We should tell. But the fact is..some of the NotKnow's will never hear. how can they have faith without hearing? how can they give up their will...if they do not know God? Why is it..that NotKnow in seeking for a god...he worships rocks..and birds...so he is seekin..but no one makes it to his house to share the ture God. NotKnow dies and goes to hell....having faith in a rock. is it fair?

why did i hear...and not NotKnow?

well many think this is election.

why did NotKnow not hear? i do not know for sure. But it is clear that many do not. so...is the blame on God...or on us? Well God says..GO TELL

So some blame will go on us...for we did not go. can we reach all the lost? well....in math logic yes. for if ALL goes...telling the world.....each one of us would only need to share with 3-4 people each year. in 5 years..the whole world would know.

the bottom line is this.......

we can not know to chose God...till God reaches out to share Himself. this election to share Gods love from God may come as a hit on the head...as with paul....or from reading the Word....or from others share Gods Love. But each of these really comes from God. God is the one sharing....other wise....no faith in God. This is election as some see it.

now still..we have other passages we need to look at.

in these passages ...God does pass over some. hey..it is in the Bible we must deal with it too

But my feeling..these "passovers" are few. but it happens..

anyway..the battle is over the will....mans will...or Gods will

sorry for the long note.

IN Christ....James

 

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." He does not just leave us incapable but is active in our reprobation. We are incapable because God makes us so.</font>[/QUOTE]So unless God is active in reprobation then man could beleive? Man is not so totally depraved he cant believe? This is not what most Calvinist beleive. And there is no real need for him to be active in reprobation if man is to totally depraved to beleive anyway. Something does not add up.

 

Phil,
Answer my question. Why do you THINK your saved? We've been more than honest to answer your questions. If you are not satisfied, fine. But what is YOUR standards?

 

Hello philg.

No offence taken but I thought you should know.

Climbing out onto the limb once again our intrepid Calvinist sallies forth! Common sense man. The reason Pharaoh had to be hardened.
With scripture that would be: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I don't know what most Calvinists believe but in principle I would agree with you. I like it where I am.

Man is not in neutral but is controlled every second in everything he does and thinks and feels and smells and sees. God is ever before me. Everything that I see and smell and think and feel and everthing else is His provision to me for me from His love for me. All I got to do is make some sense out of it and He shows me things all the time but I still want to work out what is going on. That's my Calvinism.

And that is a point of view that is alien to me. I have never seen God once removed but in and through all things sustaining them with His Word.

There's rabbits along those trails man.

john.

 

Faith in Jesus Christ is never alone.

 

See 1Cor 9:

You need to look up those NT texts on "Perseverance" and see in the details the same kind of effort described in 1Cor 9 with the same "motivation" as listed in 1Cor 9.

They all speak the same language. And it is pretty pointed.

Thank you -

The guys who have the BEST MODEL on "assurance" are the 4 Point Calvinists and they do this by tossing out the Gospel teaching on perseverance altogether.

The next best Model is the Arminianism - because they can always have total and complete "assurance" TODAY - they just can't "logically" have assurance for 10 years from today (though they will claim it anyway in many cases).

And the MODEL with the least possibility of assurance is 3 and 5 point Calvinism since it will "retro-delete" today's assurance if you fail to persevere 10 years from today. (Notice that would be THEM retro-deleting assurance not me)

So far - no one has given any way to get around these facts.

In Christ,

Bob