Can a Calvinist know for sure?

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2005

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.

Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

2Peter 2:20-22
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality,
those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "" A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,'' and,
""A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.''

Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been
made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify
to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open same.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also
tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
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These texts do not describe a casual “drift into heaven”.

But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified
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rc · Jul 21, 2005

because they can always have total and complete "assurance" TODAY - they just can't "logically" have assurance for 10 years from today

To bad your faith doesn't give you salvation for tommorow Bob.

I'm saved. And Christ will keep me because HIS PROMISE to. Your faith is in your choice, because that is your God which can fail tomorrow. My faith is in GOD, who promised to keep me, today and tomorrow.

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by rc:

To bad your faith doesn't give you salvation for tommorow Bob.
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That is an interesting twist -- I never said that an Arminian does not have salvation ten years from today.

The problems with each model listed remains - (though I appreciate the need to dance around the points they raise.)

In Christ,

Bob

Johnv · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by Roy1:
Can a Calvinist know for sure of his salvation on this side of eternity?
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A person's salvation, or their security thereof, is not contingent upon how arminian or calvinistic their views are. If anyone ever implies to you that a person who is calvininst/arminian/etc is not saved, or cannot be sure they're saved, that person needs to attend a few more Pharisees Anonymous meetings.

Roy1 · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by Johnv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Roy1:
Can a Calvinist know for sure of his salvation on this side of eternity?
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A person's salvation is not contingent upon how arminian or calvinistic their views are. If anyone ever implies to you that a person who is calvininst/arminian/etc is not saved, that person needs to attend a few more Pharisees Anonymous meetings. [/QUOTE]Hi john
You are right a person salvation is not contingent on their arminian or Calvinistic views. But what they believe about those things affect how they live today and for the future.

But can a Calvinist holding to the doctrine of perseverance have full assurance toady, that was my question.

It is no attack or any implication on their salvation. The Calvinist or Armenian may fully trust and in Christ and be genuinely saved, regardless of what they feel about eternal security, (But boy will they be in for a surprise when they get to heaven regardless of their arminian or Calvinistic stance).

Thanks.
Roy.

rc · Jul 21, 2005

That question is fair, BUT based on a false understanding of the definition of perseverance. Perseverance is something that God does not man. We WILL persevere NOT have to persevere. It is the BEDROCK of our assurance. This is the only way you CAN have ANY assurance. If we didn't have the promise of God that we are in His hands and no one (including ourselves) can pluck us out, there is NO assurance. It is unfortunate that the word, taken at face value can be misleading, but this is the true meaning of the doctrine.

With this teaching in mind, there are false converts in the Church. And not being truly enlightened will take these promises as a license to sin with a false sense of fire insurance. Paul anticipated this, and dealt with it by warning EVERYONE that confessing Christ and then living in the world is not true doctrine. These verses are imperatives and in no wise contradict anything to do with the doctrine of perseverance.

Jarthur001 · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by rc:
That question is fair, BUT based on a false understanding of the definition of perseverance. Perseverance is something that God does not man. We WILL persevere NOT have to persevere. It is the BEDROCK of our assurance. This is the only way you CAN have ANY assurance. If we didn't have the promise of God that we are in His hands and no one (including ourselves) can pluck us out, there is NO assurance. It is unfortunate that the word, taken at face value can be misleading, but this is the true meaning of the doctrine.

With this teaching in mind, there are false converts in the Church. And not being truly enlightened will take these promises as a license to sin with a false sense of fire insurance. Paul anticipated this, and dealt with it by warning EVERYONE that confessing Christ and then living in the world is not true doctrine. These verses are imperatives and in no wise contradict anything to do with the doctrine of perseverance.
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very true...

philg · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by rc:
That question is fair, BUT based on a false understanding of the definition of perseverance. Perseverance is something that God does not man. We WILL persevere NOT have to persevere. It is the BEDROCK of our assurance. This is the only way you CAN have ANY assurance. If we didn't have the promise of God that we are in His hands and no one (including ourselves) can pluck us out, there is NO assurance. It is unfortunate that the word, taken at face value can be misleading, but this is the true meaning of the doctrine.

With this teaching in mind, there are false converts in the Church. And not being truly enlightened will take these promises as a license to sin with a false sense of fire insurance. Paul anticipated this, and dealt with it by warning EVERYONE that confessing Christ and then living in the world is not true doctrine. These verses are imperatives and in no wise contradict anything to do with the doctrine of perseverance.
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Since we all sin what is the line between security and living in the world? How much must one sin for it to be said he is living in the world.
How do you know a false convert in other words.

Jarthur001 · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by philg:
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Since we all sin what is the line between security and living in the world? How much must one sin for it to be said he is living in the world.
How do you know a false convert in other words.
##############

i do not think this should be the question. How much we can get away with is a view of self. The view should be..what more can I do for God...for i worship Him.

Yet...there are those that live this way. They want to take liberty to the limit... to the edge and still say they say they love God. Hey...i can not see their heart..only God knows. But in action...always wanting more..more..more more liberty...moving the fence back..pushing the limits to new positions. ...is this moving toward God? or away?

do not get me wrong. I believe in the liberty of grace from LAWS. But when we focus on this..this is the path we take. Just as peter took his eys off of God...he sank. We too...fall when we look for freedoms and Not at Christ

I say...stay away from the edge as much as you can. Why not show God you love Him..and think about Him..not your freedoms

This is one thing that kills me on this new found church growth stuff. Lets be more like the world...to bring them in. Sounds good....but in the end...you will be like the world.

Ok..stop the hate mails...i'll just leave on my own

In Christ...James

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by rc:
That question is fair, BUT based on a false understanding of the definition of perseverance. Perseverance is something that God does not man.
Click to expand...

You are simply dodging the problem for the 3 and 5 point Calvinist. The semantics is not the "problem" so it is also not the "fix".

If you want to say "God fails to persevere for you Ten years from today so THAT is how you know that your assurance TODAY was really fake" -- go ahead but it does not solve your problem.

The problem remains.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2005

In Matt 7 Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them". But as Calvin argues - some people that are not saved (by Calvnist retro-delete standards) may indeed "appear" in every respect to be saved.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2005

Lets explore the "convincing" and supernatural "provision" Calvinists "must claim" for "fake assurance".

Calvin speaking about Hebrews 6 – admits that the retro-deleted “Assurance” of those who think they have it – is identical to the saved.

He even claims a supernatural work of God done WITHIN them by the Holy Spirit – a sense of goodness in fact a “fading faith” or a temporary faith is ascribed to them and is claimed as a direct results of supernatural means. This is not merely “total depravity” – undisturbed.

Calvin declares that God Himself supernaturally illumines their mind. Calvin’s description of the work of God “to fake this” is truly remarkable.

Where is the assurance in light of Calvins evanescent grace?“... Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith ....
Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent” (3.2.11, Institutes).

Posted on C/A board
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1528.html#000000
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Kiffen · Jul 21, 2005

I think 1 John is clear on our assurance. It is not a matter of us sinning. We all sin. There is a difference between individual sins and living in a State of Sin or living like a Lawless person. We have too many people today who base their assurance on saying a sinner's prayer or shaking a preacher's hand 30 years ago yet they have abandoned the Church and live a lawless life and think they are going to heaven.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (NASB)

1 John 3:9
No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God. (Amplified Bible)

The natural rendering then is John is NOT referring to single sins or even referring to believers struggling with certain sins in their lives BUT he is addressing the Gnostic heresy that one can live lawless lives (Practice sin) and still profess to be a Christian.

John is making it clear this is wrong and is writing that a true Believer will not live in a state of Sin (lawlessness). A Believer will not practice lawlessness (Live as if there is no God). John is not addressing Christians who are struggling with sin in their lives but is addressing those who are living lawless in sin like there is no God yet profess a relationship with Jesus Christ.

A Christian practices righteousness and is the mark of a believer. A Unbeliever practices sin or lives lawless.

The New Hampshire Baptist Confession 1833 says regarding Believers

that their persevering attachment to Christ is the grand mark which distinguishes them from superficial professors

I think rc gave a excellent understanding of the Calvinist position,

Perseverance is something that God does not man. We WILL persevere NOT have to persevere. It is the BEDROCK of our assurance. This is the only way you CAN have ANY assurance. If we didn't have the promise of God that we are in His hands and no one (including ourselves) can pluck us out, there is NO assurance.

Jarthur001 · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
In Matt 7 Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them". But as Calvin argues - some people that are not saved (by Calvnist retro-delete standards) may indeed "appear" in every respect to be saved.

In Christ,

Bob
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well..yes. What you say is very true. But do not add to this.."so fruits keep you saved" aaaw no

fruits show where your love is. I am an artist by trade. I can look at one persons art and see what they thought about when they produced it. What is inside your heart comes out in art. I see the "rock world" in some art. I see hate in some. I see bitterness in others. I see a caring person ...on and on.

Music is like this too. The song in your heart will soundforth!!

James says...SHOW ME YOUR LOVE!!
or..If you have faith...i better see some works dude.
If you say you have faith in God...yet show you love yourself more....hey bud...this shows where your love really is.

We however are not to go arond looking at others, That is not the ponit. In doing so...we will want to place our standards on others. This is for us to use on our lives. We are to use James in the right way. Works do not keep us...works shows us who WE are. if you love me...feed my sheep. it's easy too say we love God...show your love

In Christ...James

Kiffen · Jul 21, 2005

The problem with Classical Arminian theology is like Roman Catholicism their view of perseverance has one's works cooperating with the Grace of God (Semi Pelagian theology)to keep one saved. The problem with much Baptist theology (Once Saved Always Saved) is a kinda Cheap Grace, that God perseveres in keeping us saved (State of Justification) BUT God is unable to complete the Work of Sanctification in some.

webdog · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by whatever:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Faith ALONE in Jesus Christ DOES save!
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Faith in Jesus Christ is never alone. [/QUOTE]The answer I would excpect from someone whose belief system is built on the twisting of words!

whatever · Jul 21, 2005

Originally posted by webdog:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by whatever:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Faith ALONE in Jesus Christ DOES save!
Click to expand...

Faith in Jesus Christ is never alone. [/QUOTE]The answer I would excpect from someone whose belief system is built on the twisting of words! [/QUOTE]Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2005

James said
We however are not to go arond looking at others, That is not the ponit. In doing so...we will want to place our standards on others. This is for us to use on our lives. We are to use James in the right way. Works do not keep us...works shows us who WE are. if you love me...feed my sheep. it's easy too say we love God...show your love
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JAmes the point I am making is not that we need to go around trying to figure out if someone is really saved - my point is that you need to know if YOU are saved.

And the point of Matt 7 is that what you DO DOES show something about whether you are really changed on the inside. If Christ wanted to make the argument that what you do is in no way related to whether you are changed or not - there was a way to say that.

The argument about fruits is very explicitly talking about what you "do" there is no escaping that.

Hence - those 5PT Calvinists that DO hold to the Bible teaching on Perseverance are right in some respects.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jul 21, 2005

"You see then that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE" James 2:24

I sure am glad I didn't say that.

In Christ,

Bob

Jarthur001 · Jul 22, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
"You see then that a man is justified by WORKS and NOT by FAITH ALONE" James 2:24

I sure am glad I didn't say that.

In Christ,

Bob
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Works will show you where your love is...right Bob?

but works will not save you.

Becoming saved to many is only a statement that you believe there is a God and That Gods Son can to die for our sins. This is ture but does not cover the full picture.

This leads to salvation with us in control. This shows...We help God save...we also help God when we have time, in our walk in this life. This view, if it is salvation is very weak savation. I'm not preaching on LORDship salvation...i'm talking about the other end...WEAK trust in God produces WEAK believers

This is why i like to say i worship God.

I lay down on the ground...cry out to God of my need for Him....I do not understand WHY he loves me.....why he elected to share His love with me.
I cry not my will ,..,i give it all to you my Lord.... and ask "God what can i do for you Lord?...for you are my God".

James says if you love him as you say you do..your body that gives us action of our thoughts comes with salvation. Our actions will show our heart. So works...not your will is what shows our worship. your works should change to Gods will....which then is good works at salvation. The works do not save. But when we worship Him..it comes with salvation.

WORSHIP is the key...not the same as "praise and worship time" we now see in some churches. this type of worship has turned in to easy ways for us enjoy church. i better not get started on that...i'll be typing all day

In Christ...James

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