Can a Calvinist know for sure?

While it is true that works do not save - it is also true that there is a future justification that is by works (as James points out and as Paul states in Rom 2:13-16). There is also a past justification that is by faith alone as Paul points out in Romans 5:1 and in Romans 3.

The justification that is past (and by faith alone) changes our status from lost to saved.

The justification that is future does not change our status. It demonstrates the truth of God's assertion about us in the same way that the life of Job justified the statement God makes in Job 1 and 2. It did not change Job from being lost to saved. He had to be saved (born again) to start with or he never could have gone through as he did. The FRUITS (Matt 7) SHOWED the changed life and justified Job in the sight of that council before whom the accuser of our brethren had accused both God and Job.

In Christ,

Bob

 

And of course that entire "test and SEE" (as in Ps 34 "TASTE and SEE") model is ideal for an Arminian system in which data and experiment are used to compell reason and logic for conclusion in favor of God's assertion.

The entire notion that God would make a statement - be challenged - and then PROVE Himself to be correct in an experiment SHOWS a system that allows evaluation and decision - "choice" - even when it comes to the actions of God Himself as to whether He is right or wrong.

Arminian raised to the infinite power!

In Christ,

Bob

 

It is a good question and the answers given "Show" that the way they do it is to cling to assurance "in spite of" their model for salvation and perseverance (in the case of 3 and 5 pt Calvinists).

Having said that I AGREE that perseverance is absolutely needed and is not optional. But the Arminian model where Perseverance is needed and salvation can be lost (Forgiveness revoked as in Matt 18) ALLOWS for full and complete assurance "today". It simply says that for assurance "Ten YEARS from TODAY" you will need to "Die Daily" 1Cor 15. Or as Christ said "Take up your cross DAILY and follow Me".

So IF we just look at "assurance" and "who has the best assurance-story" it is 4-point Calvinists!

As an Arminian - I am allowed to be objective enough to choose to admit to that fact.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob.

And where does that get your Arminianism as He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws. PS 147:19-20.
But that is not to your taste is it kemosabe?

RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

Nor can that be can it 'a'?

Here we have the spectacle of Bob trying out Godhood to see if it fits his notions.

And that is not to my taste.

john.

 

Hello Bob.

You have a novel way with words Bob. Does one find that he can cling to assurance or does the clinging happen the other way round? I know I hold opinions but my convictions grip me and I have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. Heb 6:19-20.
Praise the Lord. I rejoice in God my Saviour my very great comfort and refuge. I entered His rest and so I rest not only from works but from fear as you must live in fear of falling. Why don't you like assurance man you think it sissy or something?

john.

 

Hello John --

Flying off the handle again John?

If you have a quote from me saying "I don't like assurance" -- feel free to post it and make your point.

Or are you just engaging in obligatory ranting?

I have stated the assurance position for 3 and 5 point Calvinists (and the challenge they face - but seldom want to deal with in a discussion forum like this).

I have shown the one for 4 Point Calvinists and also for Arminians such as myself that accept the teaching of Christ in Matt 18 as well as the Arminian POV and assurance realized "for real" and not open to "retro-deleting" as it is in the 3 and 5 point Calivnist system.

If there is a "Specific" in that that you want to discuss go ahead - but since you quote nothing - I assume your only interest is ..?

What is your interest John?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello John -

Are you really bothered by a tiny snippet from Ps 34???

I give - where does that "get my Arminianism"??

The point remains - the "Taste and See" point of Scripture calls for experiement - for experience for living interaction and evaluation.

A perfect example for the Arminian POV.

Of course if one is going to snippet/cut the scriptures into the part they like vs don't like - who knows - maybe this is the part you "don't like".

RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

Indeed Romans 2:13-16 points to gentiles who DO NOT have scripture "Doing INSTINCTIVELY the things of God's Word SHOWING God's Word written on their heart" and hence being UNDER the NEW Covenant.

For "circumcision is by the Spirit and he is a jew who is one inwardly" Romans 2.

Paul argues FOR These people not against them!!

having shown us both the group that in the future obtain immortality and the group that in the future suffer the wrath after the future judgment of God - Paul now summs it up - the justification that is future will be for the doers and not for those who are proven to be merely hearers.

This is not a fact that Paul then goes on to deny in the rest of the book of Romans. Rather he continues to strongly endorse it (note particularly Romans 6). John McAarthur did an excellent series on this point - titled "the power over sin".

Paul now continues with the succeeding case! Yes that is right! His argument works and he gives a very simple proving case.

There actually were Gentiles that really did not have the Law of God! That is very important to understand. And there were those who did instinctively the things of the Law showing it was written on their heart!! Wow! So that means Paul really was right!

Even more interesting is the fact that this terminology regarding "the Law written on the heart" is new covenant terminology. Heb 8, 2Cor 3!!! Yes indeed we have the succeeding case as well as the failing case made in this non-myopic chapter of God's infallible word.

wow! Apparently the infallible word is telling us that it is gospel - good news that a future judgment, where the Gentiles are shown to be doers of the Law and not merely hearers only, is coming. A future Christ centered judgment!! What a Christ-centered gospel Paul has in this chapter!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi ya Bob,

Lets look at Psalms 34....


1I (DAVID writing) will bless THE LORD at all times;
His praise shall continually be in my mouth.

2My soul will make its boast
in THE LORD;
The humble will hear it and rejoice.
      
David invites others to rejoice not sure this is yet....


3O magnify THE LORD with me,
And let us exalt His name together.

Davids own story...

4 I (DAVID) sought THE LORD,
and He answered me,
And delivered me from all my fears.

5They (DAVID) looked to Him .....(THE LORD)
and were radiant,
And their faces will never be ashamed.

6This poor man (DAVID) cried,
and THE LORD heard him
And saved him out of all his troubles.

THE TEXT AT HAND...

*** God delivers His saints ***

This is where we 1st see who David invites to rejoice with him, It is the Saints

7The angel of THE LORD
encamps around those who fear Him,
And rescues them.

Those that fear Him...are His saints

8O taste and see...(talking to the saints)
that THE LORD is good;
How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!

Those the take refuge are not “trying” salvation...they are saints

9O fear THE LORD,
you His saints;
For to those who fear Him there is no want.

Those that have no want are His Saints...


10The young lions do lack
and suffer hunger;
But they who seek the LORD
shall not be in want of any good thing.

The young (saints) lack no GOOD thing.

11Come, you children,
listen to me;
I will teach you the fear of THE LORD.

Notice this is where this part started back in verse 7. The saints fear God. Hear it is..COME young saints...or children...for he is our Father...and I will teach you to fear The Lord.
      
12Who is the man
who desires life
And loves length of days that he may see good?

Notice the kid has grown to a man...and seeks good. This comes from fearing the lord. Who is this man? the saint
**************

From 13-14..we have “words to the wise”
The beginning of wisdom is..to fear THE LORD


to the saints......
13Keep your tongue from evil
And your lips from speaking deceit.

to the saints......
14Depart from evil and do good;
Seek peace and pursue it.
****************

Words to the wise..part 2 This is more to the point ..GOD knows about our rough times.15-22

The Great Deliverer....THE LORD

15The eyes of THE LORD
are toward the righteous
And His ears are open to their cry.

righteous = saints...His ears are open and his eyes are on you

16The face of THE LORD
is against evildoers,
To cut off the memory of them from the earth.

evildoers...not saints. So...Gods face is AGAINST them. Now read 15 again and see where Gods face is.

17The righteous cry,
and THE LORD hears
And delivers them out of all their troubles.

righteous = saints...he hears your cries

18THE LORD is near
to the brokenhearted
And saves those who are crushed in spirit.

contexts says this is saints..when your heart is crushed..i’m near

19Many are the afflictions
of the righteous,
But The LORD delivers him out of them all.

righteous = saints..He delivers us from afflictions

20He keeps all his bones,
Not one of them is broken.

Notice all the verse above have THE LORD in them. Now this one...HE...is THE LORD....and keeps the saints safe...and the saint is not broken.
But as you know...this is more/also talking about Christ on the cross.

21Evil shall slay the wicked,
And those who hate the righteous will be condemned.

those that hate saints ....condemned


I think this last verse is the key verse...

22The LORD redeems the soul of His servants,
And none of those who take refuge in Him will be condemned.

The Lord redeems the soul.

those that take refuge...remember this word? look back to the verse you point out...redeem...into refuge.

This is not the unsaved.

Tasting is KNOWING God..being saved.
You said calvin made a mess out of heb 6...and i agree. But you stated...TASTE means SAVED ..not unsaved in Heb 6. Please do not make the same mistake as calvin did with heb 6 with this passage in Psalms


IN Christ...James

 

First of all I just can't believe that Calvinist evangelist's would limit the call of God "come until me ALL Who are weary" and "Come everyone who thirsts come and drink" -- to the "Saints" that are already in fellowship with Christ - but not to the lost.

I hope that is not what you are trying to say in your points about Psalms 34 only applying to the saved - to those called "The righteous". I believe God calls out to the lost to receive Christ to "taste and SEE that the Lord is good". For when they come to Christ they are Justified and have PEACE with God and experience the blessings and relationship described in Psalms 34.

Secondly - I do fully agree that the saints have that full relationship of blessing described in Psalms 34.

Having said that - my argument from Heb 6 was that those who have tasted of such things - are indeed those who have been born-again - saved and having entered into that fellowship HAVE tasted just as Psalms 34 points out the experience, blessing and priviledge of those who are in Christ and called "The righteous" in Psalms 34.

So this is a consistent view between both Psalms 34 and Heb 6 - and it is in keeping with your statements about Psalms 34.

IN Matt 18 that "Forgiven" servant who is AT PEACE with God is later called "wicked" because of his later choices in crucifying again to Himself the Son of God. But He is not called "Wicked" when pleading for forgiveness OR when GIVEN forgiveness. He must fall away just as Heb 6 describes before the negative label is given to him.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Limit...no. the point is tasting is salvation. so.... Sorry...that does not work with the point you have tried to force on this passage for 2-3 pages. I'm saying when they taste..they are saved just as you said in heb 6

is it a call to the unsaved? you could say that. and it very well could be. but the point you have been trying to force on this passage is tasting ...is trying to see if you like it. The call is not to try out salvation, the call is to be saved...tasting is knowing. just as heb 6


IN CHRIST...James

[ July 24, 2005, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Jarthur001 ]

 

BTW...he is a little mislead again Bob. You were forcing a TRY salvation. I showed why i did not feel it was so. You may still not agree with me...fine.

now you bring in to passages from another context and suggest i have crossed over in doctrine. Those passages above is clearly calling all.

the passage in psalms can be seen as a "call"...i have no problem with that. The point you over look in forcing your views. tasting is know.


tasting is...the saints

however...in hebrew it takes on a call to the saints to enjoy the goodness of God. The full context as we saw is the saved can be sure he is with you..in the rough times.

Now it can be said...this is a bible truth of "calling the world"...and it is...so you can pull a bible truth of calling the world to salvation.

but for you to say.."i do not believe this is a call to the world....is very misleading..

 

Hello everybody,

I am new on this site and have not figured it all out yet.......I may fumble around for a while.

(1 John 5:13)

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life , and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Modern English;

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

"so that you may know that you have eternal life"

We may know for certain because God has assured us with His Word. He is trustworthy.

God bless you all, regards KJB

 

So true Brother King james bond. AMEN

Nice to meet you KJbond

Can i call you bond....james bond??


david knew for sure too "I shall dell in the house of the Lord forever.

Paul know for sure too..."I am persuaded that (context NOTHING) can seperate me from the love of God.

What is sad is this. Many that do not believe we can be assured, can not be sure that These great men of the bible that God used to write the Bible, will make it to heaven. If one can loss their salvation, david, paul, peter, and many others may have lost their salvation before they died and never made it to heaven. What a sad thought to carry around.

Yet the bible tells us we can be assured in so many ways.

Praise GOD...it is Him that saves..and keeps


In Christ...James

 

Hello Brother Jarthur001,

Nice to meet you also!

Very good points you make....yes the Lord saves and He keeps!

God bless you and regards, KJB

 

This is true. But the problem is not that we have no indication from scripture that we may have assurance of salvation. The problem is how basis of assurance survives in the various models for the Gospel and salvation.

Each group gladly "claims it can hold to assurance" - but then they have a "model" which logically/reasonably calls assurance into question.

This was shown in the case of 3 and 5 PT Calvinism AND in the case of the Arminian model.

Of course each group would "Claim assurance AND OSAS" -- "anyway" regardless of the fact that doing so flies in the face of the model they hold to "at least in some way".

Only The 4 Pt Calvinists get off scott free when it comes to OSAS AND Assurance -- becuase the FIFTH point they DROP is the Bible teaching on Perseverance (A Bible truth which they reject yet the Arminans, and the 3 and 5PT Calvinists don't reject).

Roy was pointing this out (sorta) in his opening post.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The "tasting of the heavenly gift" is never a description of "being lost".

Nor is it the totally depraved lost that

AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the Good Word of God and the powers of the age to come,

And further IF this could be spun around as if THIS is what it means to be lost then "RENEWING someone AGAIN" to this LOST state would be pointless and an absurd argument!

----------------------------

Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who is faithful. That is not the issue.

Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state.

But then.... it perishes.

IN the case of those WHO HAVE once BEEN enlightened!

(This is the view of the lost - in darkness ACCEPTING light such that they ARE enlightened - at least at one time).

AND have tasted of the heavenly gift

Not the description of the totally depraved lost.


AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the Good Word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This is never the description of the totally depraved lost experience.

"AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY"

clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

In Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –

Notice the first state of “The Heavenly gift” and “partaking of the Holy Spirit” is the state in which they are supposed to have REMAINED. They are never chastised for BEING in that state – as if that was still “the lost state”. Indeed falling away from “a lost state” could only have been a good thing.

On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?

Calvinists make a mockery of this text by denying it's clear meaning regarding RENEWING people back to Godly - genuine repentance and “tasting of the REAL heavenly gift” which is salvation itself.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Many/most calvinists would have us believe that worthless ground does NOT receive the same grace/ministry/drawing/calling as the good ground AND SO IT STAYS as worthless ground. INSTEAD of that view - scripture says they both receive the life giving ministry but the ground ITSELF is determining the response.

Notice in the comparison - Paul makes it very clear that it is the SAVED state that is the ideal/good state from which one does not
want to fall.

 

Hello Bob,

 

Hi KJB -

Good to meet you as well.

IS this what Arminians say they believe?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I think Arminians make the 1Cor 11 claim that Paul makes about "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to other I MYSELF should be disqualified".

If you want to "interpret" Paul as "saving himself" for having that view - it is fine - but Paul never actually claims to "save himself" even though he holds that view in 1Cor 11.

My comments above about "how assurance survives" in a given model - was simply to show the "logic".

If an Arminian claims OSAS for example they are arguing against their model - since free will is basic to it and should ALLOW for choice even after salvation.

If a 3 or 5 pointer argues for OSAS it is fine because their model fully supports that - but assurance is "retro-deleted" in the 3 and 5 point system. So even though they "claim it" they can not ignore the fact that their model does not allow for it in reality.

4 Point Calvinists have the best "story" for assurance by rejecting the Bible teaching on Perseverance.

Arminians have the next best logical model for assurance.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hello Bob,

Arminians come in all shapes and sizes and probably lay claim to a variety of different convictions.

I am certain that many are convinced that it is their sovereign choice (free-choice) that saves their souls....even though they will not say it in the same way.

Many Arminians (not all) hold to the theory that Jesus Christ has only provided an offer of salvation without effect. They claim it is not with effect unless the sovereign will of men come to and accept Him.

This is simply a false gospel. If people had to rely on their own wretched hearts and will-power to come to Christ...none would ever come! Heaven would remain forever empty.

Any person (regardless of their label) that trusts in anything other than the total, sovereign, predetermined, will of God in electing a specific group of people toward salvation can't be assured.

The salvation of weak, pitiful, sinful men does not, nor cannot rely on weak, pitiful, sinful men.

They might feel assured and of course they may claim assurance.

God has predetermined a certain and specific number of people to salvation.....and it will be done, according to His will.

Now in regards to knowing it is true has to rely on a gift God gives.....assurance in Him and His promise. Faith in Jesus Christ and not ourselves.

For He is faithful.

If people claim that they are not assured of their salvation (because they might turn away for example) then they have not faith in God, nor in themselves. They are altogether faithless.

By the same token if people rely on themselves to initiate and keep their salvation, they most certainly are not secure. They have their faith not in Jesus Christ, but in themselves.

A little faith in the proper direction is much better than gigantic amounts of faith in the wrong object.

Now they may "percieve" they know and are certain......but to trust in lies will never save them no matter how much they believe them.

For the creature being saved, God brings the conscience of the creature upon the creature in light of Gods Holy Word and unmovable Standard.

It is here we find that we can do nothing but abandon ourselves before Him. Our lives, and everything we hold dear are nothing compared to Him. We come to know that there is nothing good in us of ourselves.

We are convicted that we are dependent upon Christ for all things, including the power to save us and to keep us. We realize that He alone saves us. We keep our eyes on JESUS, on whom our faith depends from start to finish.

Scripture says people are blind to the gospel.

Satan holds people in blindness to the gospel....it is only God that can command light to shine in darkness.

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."

I see what you are saying about the "models" now. You are describing the theories that certain groups hold to.

I do not understand how assurance is deleted in the 3 or 5 point model though.

I also do not understand how 4 Point Calvinists have the best "story" for assurance by rejecting the Bible teaching on Perseverance.

And how Arminians have the next best logical model for assurance.

Please explain on those further....

Regards, KJB