the concept of the trinity established by the Apostles themselves, but we are commanded to pray as I posted prior!
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CAn A catholic Agree with me That we aLL are saints to god as Much As mary/Apostles?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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the concept of the trinity established by the Apostles themselves, but we are commanded to pray as I posted prior!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Show me the bible passage which shows the apostles saying that people need to believe in the Trinity. Just one verse. You can't. Do you know why? Its not there.
paul blessed them in the name of the trinity, that the Grace of the father/Son/Spirit be upon them...
peter and John BOTh called father God, and jesus, ditto paul...
Paul said jesus and his Spirit are one, both God....
Quite clear from Apostolic Age on, the earliest Christians held to trinitarian theology concerning God!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
You added to scriptures thats not what scripture says. Nowhere does scripture say "paul blessed them in the name of the trinity, that the grace of the father/son/spirit be upon them
Show me verses where John or Peter identify the Trinity as a Trinity.
Did Paul say that or did Jesus? Jesus never said "both God...."
Quite Clear that Tertullian coined the phrase "Trinity" and quite clear that the trinity had to be identified and defined because of the Arian heresy in 325 AD.
the apostles called God the father of jesus God
called yeshua God
called Holy spirit God
During the Apostolic period, the Christians knew God as a truine being!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Yes, but they didn't clarify what they meant. Jehovah's Witness will tell you using those same passages that they were talking about two different gods and an action or energy of God. Arius also seperated Jesus from the Father saying that there was a time Jesus was not. We can assertain by holding to the inference of the Apostles writings that they held to a belief of the Trinity but it isn't specified in the bible. It wasn't specified and certified until Nicea. Which certification that it gave was that the apostles had always meant Trinity and that was the consistent teaching of the Chruch from the begining. And of course there is evidence to support this view. However, relying on scriptures alone you can derive all sorts of things as both Arius, and the Jehovah Witness prove as an example. The Trinity as a doctrine was defined at Nicea before that it was a generally held belief but not defined.
The term "trinity" is not essential to the doctrine of God. If it were then it would be found in scripture. The scripture uses the term "Godhead" and it spells out the unity of the Godhead in three distinct Persons.
Don't let TS fool you into believing the term "trinity" is essential to this discussion because it is not. Tertullian the Montanist used the term "Trinity" long before any council ever used it.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I'm sorry Trinity is an essential belief. Its what seperates Christians from non-Christians. Jehovah's Witness are not Christian because they don't hold to the Trinity. Oneness Pentecostals are not Christians because they don't hold to the Trinity, Mormons aren't Christians because they don't hold to the Trinity, Arians are not Christians because they don't hold to the Trinity. Tertullian wasn't always a Montanist and he did coin the phrase Trinity as it wasn't named previously but it was believed it just wasn't defined. Nicea made it clear that to be Orthodox you must believe in the Trinity. Nicea identifies the term and defines it clearly. It must be believed.
the concept of there being 3 divine persons in One being/God, was known and accepted by church during time of the Apostles...
the Council just ratified as "official: that which was recognised since time of the Apostles!
Again the church from it beginnings recognized that truth! jesus is Lord!
So there could have been another term than trinity agreed upon, no matter, as its the concept behind the term that counts!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Not by that term nor how it was specifically defined and the working of how it worked. They certainly had the general idea but not defined..
And how it was defined. The apostles didn't go around saying Jesus was Homoosious with the Father but it certainly was defined in 325 AD.
regardless , the earliest Christians as part of the "belief system" knew and saw God as a truine Being, Father/Son/Holy Spirit!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
It's not regardless. Its an important issue. They had some idea of a triune being but it wasn't solidly defined until Nicea.
It was taught by the Apostles to the local churches diring the Apostolic era!
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
It wasn't ever taught by the Apostles that Jesus was homoosious with the father! Never once what the Trinity as defined by Nicea taught by the Apostles! The apostles made allusions to the trinity but at no point defined it. That is not to say that if the issue had come up they wouldn't have taught it. But it was never an issue for the Apostles. And no where in scipture do we see that level of theology of the Trinity. We see aspects but thats it.
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Interesting! the Apsotle John saw Him as being equal to the father, as being in his very essense God, as did paul!
And peter saw Holy Spirit as God, as did paul!
Are you stating thatthe Apsotles did NOT see God as the later Councils?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
show me one verse where Paul says Jesus is homoosious with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Just one verse.
NO I'm not stating that at all I'm saying it wasn't an issue that didn't need to be defined.
Just like the Council of Jerusalem. Up until that point because of the large influx of gentiles the question of whether people needed to be circumcised to be christian never came up. Jesus didn't speak about that either. Does that mean Jesus didn't believe that circumcison wasn't necissary? No. But he didn't teach about that aspect and it wasn't defined until Jerusalem.
what would the Spirt of Christ, Chrsit is the Spirit, mean to you?
What does being in the expressed image of God mean to you?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Not homoosious. Where does Paul say that? He spoke Greek after all. Where does he say that?
Homoosious isn't used in this passage either. I'm made in the image of God as are you.
paul called Jesus the "express image" of the invisible God, so that he was the exact likeness of God in bodily form!
can you claim that?
And same Apostle called the Spirit of Christ is the Lord!
Regardless of greek term he sused, meant jesus and the Spirit are both God!