Can A Christian refuse believers baptism And not be Sinning?

[agedman]

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


MB

This is a good quote.

However, it was not a command by Peter.

The people asked, and he gave instruction in the process what they were to follow. Look at the following three verses 39-41:

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

 

[preacher4truth]

This is a good quote.

However, it was not a command by Peter.

The people asked, and he gave instruction in the process what they were to follow. Look at the following three verses 39-41:

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

Wrong. It was a command. But hey, go ahead and preach that it's not commanded, tell people it's an option, OK?

 

[freeatlast]

Would you provide a specific verse for this statement?

Where does the Lord state that a believer must be baptized or they have broken a commandment?

The reason I ask is because I wanted to make sure that God had added baptism to the ten commandments.

Good question, no problem.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
There is the command to baptize.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen

And there is the command to observe all He commanded and baptism is just one of many..

 

[agedman]

The apostles are of Christ, and were under His authority. When they told others to be baptized, it was a command. For you to come up with how much weight this carries/is it as weighty as the 10 commandments is ridiculous and an incorrigible stance. I can't imagine how well received your questioning of their authority would have been concerning baptism as an imperative. I'm guessing you would have been in a dire predicament both doctrinally and positionally.

If it came, and it did, from the authority of Christ, it carries much weight.

That you, not fal, are calling into question just how much weight the command of baptism carries is unfortunate and fallacious.

It is NOT a commandment.

However:

FAL wants to judge a person's salvation on whether a person is baptized and that is a false position.

FAL's position is that a person cannot be a believer and be in disobedience.

In teaching such, he is in error.

That is the issue in which I was addressing.

Do I think that the ordinances are important? Absolutely.

One cannot read what I have posted on the ordinances and not know how extremely important the observation and worthiness is to the believer.

However, ordinances are ordinances.

The individual must determine when they are worthy to keep either ordinance.

To assign the state of salvation, church membership or any other "qualifier" to that ordinance is a mistake and not found in Scripture.

FAL places the proof of salvation on keeping the commandments, and now in this thread he has included keeping the ordinance of baptism and if one is not baptized they are not saved.

He is in error.

Do you not think so?

 

[freeatlast]

I am referring to FAL statement that believers keep the ten commandments and if they don't they are not believers.

He is making the same claim in this thread.

Where did the apostles "command" any believer to be baptized?

I see them instructing, but demanding such as "thou shalt be baptized" I haven't found.

Perhaps it is there and I just haven't read that part.

I never made that statement. Perhaps you have been eating some bad dog food and it is impairing your thinking. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[freeatlast]

I'm not the one "picking" and choosing.

I asked a simple question about the strength of the argument FAL was putting forward.

If it is NOT a command, with the weight of a ten commandment, then the weight he is assigning to baptism and the salvation of a believer is faulty.

That in no way is diminishing the importance and the blessings those who have been baptized experience(d).

Circumcisisn was not in the ten commandments and yet it had the same strength as the ten. The same with Baptism.

 

[agedman]

Good question, no problem.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
There is the command to baptize.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen

And there is the command to observe all He commanded and baptism is just one of many..

Good try, but did you miss to whom He was addressing the commission?

Christ was talking to the very first trained believers.

He was telling those believers: to go (be traveling salesmen), to tell (show how good the product was), to baptize (to get a signed contract), to observe all that He commanded (just as He taught them).

By doing so, the process would be passed on to others.

Nowhere is there any commandment that salvation is based upon taking the ordinances or not.

 

[freeatlast]

Nowhere is there any commandment that salvation is based upon taking the ordinances or not.

Like I stated in a prior post you may have ingested some bad dog food and it is causing your mind to play tricks on you as I have not said that.

 

[preacher4truth]

It is NOT a commandment.

It's certainly a command. You're doing some false teaching here.

Like I said, go preach that those saved don't need to follow this imperative. It's in fact what you are doing as of now.

You're in grave error.

But I've taken note this is not the only area in which you do err and teach fallacy.

 

[agedman]

Wrong. It was a command. But hey, go ahead and preach that it's not commanded, tell people it's an option, OK?

Did you not read what was in read?

I even underlined the words for you.

NO command - but exhortation and testimony.

Again, I am not diminishing the importance of the ordinances.

But the keeping or not keeping is not a qualifier that someone can look and judge another person's salvation.

 

[freeatlast]

Did you not read what was in read?

I even underlined the words for you.

NO command - but exhortation and testimony.

Again, I am not diminishing the importance of the ordinances.

But the keeping or not keeping is not a qualifier that someone can look and judge another person's salvation.

Are you suggesting that Baptism is just a suggestion or choice for believers?

 

[agedman]

Like I stated in a prior post you may have ingested some bad dog food and it is causing your mind to play tricks on you as I have not said that.

Ah, but your own words betray you.

If a person refuses baptism there is no reason to believe they are a Christian.

True but it requires repentance to come to faith and the evidence of salvation is if the person is keeping the commandments (1 John 2:4) and Baptism is the first command after salvation. If that is refused then there is no reason to believe the person is saved.

That is like saying others live out their lives and never stop their homosexuality but still remain very Christian people.

You don't bellieve that if we break one command we are guilty of all and Baptism is a command?

Biblical baptism is the outward act showing an inward work of God while proclaiming Jesus as Lord and is the first command a new believer has.

The only way we can know according to scripture is if we are keeping to commandments (1 John 2:4). Baptism is a command. If a person is refusing baptism even for fear then they will not have assurance that they are saved. They will always have doubt until they take care of what God calls them to do.


It would be impossible for a believer to have a clear conscience and not be baptized.

Biblical baptism is the outward act showing an inward work of God while proclaiming Jesus as Lord and is the first command a new believer has.

You have placed importance upon commandments - not me.

You have placed judgment of a person's salvation upon the keeping of commandments - not me.

You have placed the ordinances as commandments - not me.

 

[freeatlast]

Ah, but your own words betray you.

If a person refuses baptism there is no reason to believe they are a Christian.

True but it requires repentance to come to faith and the evidence of salvation is if the person is keeping the commandments (1 John 2:4) and Baptism is the first command after salvation. If that is refused then there is no reason to believe the person is saved.

That is like saying others live out their lives and never stop their homosexuality but still remain very Christian people.

You don't bellieve that if we break one command we are guilty of all and Baptism is a command?

Biblical baptism is the outward act showing an inward work of God while proclaiming Jesus as Lord and is the first command a new believer has.

The only way we can know according to scripture is if we are keeping to commandments (1 John 2:4). Baptism is a command. If a person is refusing baptism even for fear then they will not have assurance that they are saved. They will always have doubt until they take care of what God calls them to do.


It would be impossible for a believer to have a clear conscience and not be baptized.

Biblical baptism is the outward act showing an inward work of God while proclaiming Jesus as Lord and is the first command a new believer has.

You have placed importance upon commandments - not me.

You have placed judgment of a person's salvation upon the keeping of commandments - not me.

You have placed the ordinances as commandments - not me.

Perehaps you have not read the whole bible as I know some have not.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I can understand you getting me and John confused as we both believe the word is true, but I am not John and I did not write that, John did. So again
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Baptism is a command.

Let me ask again;
Are you suggesting that Baptism is just a suggestion or choice for believers?

 

[agedman]

Are you suggesting that Baptism is just a suggestion or choice for believers?

I am stating that baptism is not a commandment. Mark makes this clear in Mark 16:15. Belief is separated from baptism in salvation.

Ordinances are ordinances.

The ordinances are to the individual and at each observance the most holy and worship filled experience a believer may have.

As such, the ordinances are not commandments, but promise keeping validations.

Certainly, if one becomes a believer, there is great importance that they "follow the Lord ('s example) in baptism. The baptism may follow immediately or there may be a growing process that is necessary.

The Lord works the salvation experience individually and no two come to Christ with the same "baggage." There are no cookie cutter believers.

 

[freeatlast]

I am stating that baptism is not a commandment. Mark makes this clear in Mark 16:15. Belief is separated from baptism in salvation.

Ordinances are ordinances.

The ordinances are to the individual and at each observance the most holy and worship filled experience a believer may have.

As such, the ordinances are not commandments, but promise keeping validations.

Certainly, if one becomes a believer, there is great importance that they "follow the Lord ('s example) in baptism. The baptism may follow immediately or there may be a growing process that is necessary.

The Lord works the salvation experience individually and no two come to Christ with the same "baggage." There are no cookie cutter believers.

Belief and obediance go hand and hand. If baptism it is not a command what is it. A suggestion, or somehting made up and we can take it or leave it or what? The passage in Matt and acts is a command to Baptize and to be baptized so how is Baptism not a command for the believer?

 

[agedman]

Perehaps you have not read the whole bible as I know some have not.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I can understand you getting me and John confused as we both believe the word is true, but I am not John and I did not write that, John did. So again
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Baptism is a command.

Let me ask again;
Are you suggesting that Baptism is just a suggestion or choice for believers?

No mistaking you for John.

Show me ONE verse that says, "thou shalt be baptized."

I have been shown three (I think) so far, and in each it has been that the context or audience addressed is missed.

If you have further on the topic, show the proof.

In two threads, you were shown your holding of 1 John to be in error.

You cling to a single verse to hold to false doctrinal belief. You are the one who left off the word "practice" in the threads - not me. I have looked at other threads in the past, and you did use the word - but when challenged you did not recant from the stand you took and apparently by this thread continue in error.

No Scripture is ever to be taken in isolation as a proof of doctrine and principle of life, but each Scripture builds precept upon precept.

Baptism is NOT a command. Until you can prove by Scripture that it is, it remains YOUR opinion to place it into that position.

I have consistently held that Baptism is an ordinance. That it applies to the individual to be observed in high holy worship.

Ordinances are not commandments. As used in Scripture, ordinances are a formally prescribed religious ceremony.

 

[freeatlast]

No mistaking you for John.

Show me ONE verse that says, "thou shalt be baptized."

I have been shown three (I think) so far, and in each it has been that the context or audience addressed is missed.

If you have further on the topic, show the proof.

In two threads, you were shown your holding of 1 John to be in error.

You cling to a single verse to hold to false doctrinal belief. You are the one who left off the word "practice" in the threads - not me. I have looked at other threads in the past, and you did use the word - but when challenged you did not recant from the stand you took and apparently by this thread continue in error.

No Scripture is ever to be taken in isolation as a proof of doctrine and principle of life, but each Scripture builds precept upon precept.

Baptism is NOT a command. Until you can prove by Scripture that it is, it remains YOUR opinion to place it into that position.

I have consistently held that Baptism is an ordinance. That it applies to the individual to be observed in high holy worship.

Ordinances are not commandments. As used in Scripture, ordinances are a formally prescribed religious ceremony.

Show me a verse that says thou shalt be circumcised. Or thou shalt take the passover.

Again if baptism is not a command tell me what it is. Is it just a suggestion or what? Can we take it or leave it and no foul?
As to John I cannot help that you do not believe the bible. That is your problem.

 

[agedman]

Belief and obediance go hand and hand. If baptism it is not a command what is it. A suggestion, or somehting made up and we can take it or leave it or what? The passage in Matt and acts is a command to Baptize and to be baptized so how is Baptism not a command for the believer?

I have dealt with both Matthew and Acts - in summery:

No Mattew and Acts do not state believer baptism as a command.

Mattew (as previously posted) is the commission given to believers and the commission doesn't automatically translate into have to follow steps. One can put teaching before baptism. Certainly, that is why we have children in Sunday School. One does not wait for an unbeliever to become a believer before teaching takes place.

Acts (as previously posted) is not a commandment, either.

Peter is exhorting and testifying and stating the process, but there is no demand/command - see the previous post of the passage in context and the underlined words.



In case you missed a just posted response, I showed that baptism (even in Baptist churches) si an ordinance - a high holy individual centered worship experience - a formal prescribed ceremony that a church may schedule.

.

 

[agedman]

FAL, "Belief and obediance go hand and hand."

Not true.

Example, very few children do not believe their parent(s) might be highly displeased when they lie and steal. No child has ever lived that did not do both.

 

[freeatlast]

I have dealt with both Matthew and Acts - in summery:

No Mattew and Acts do not state believer baptism as a command.

Mattew (as previously posted) is the commission given to believers and the commission doesn't automatically translate into have to follow steps. One can put teaching before baptism. Certainly, that is why we have children in Sunday School. One does not wait for an unbeliever to become a believer before teaching takes place.

Acts (as previously posted) is not a commandment, either.

Peter is exhorting and testifying and stating the process, but there is no demand/command - see the previous post of the passage in context and the underlined words.



In case you missed a just posted response, I showed that baptism (even in Baptist churches) si an ordinance - a high holy individual centered worship experience - a formal prescribed ceremony that a church may schedule.

.

No you have not shown anything that is accurate. All you have done is make statements that are not true. Actually matt and Acts do state it in a command. The Greek is in a command form to repent and be baptized. Baptism is a command. If Baptism is not a command then neither is repentance. Any person refusing Baptism shows they probably were not saved.Baptism is not a church ordinance. It is a believers testimony from obedience.