can A Chrsitian Attain Sinless perfection before they Die?

[agedman]

Your joking, right?

That isn't answering the question.

 

[Mark_13]

If God had not called the invasion of Israel by Nebuchadnezzar the will of God, then you might have a case to rebuke what you don't agree with.

If God had not sent the Israeli army to kill every man, woman, child, goat, ox, cow, dog and cat then you might have a case to rebuke what you don't agree with.

But, because God does perform as He desires and plans and doesn't include nor need your view, then your rebuke is like slapping the rain in a thunder shower.

Don't understand at all where you're going with this.

 

[TCGreek]

is that state able to be reached by us or not?

What are the assumptions of this question?

 

[agedman]

We are body sole and spirit and that cannot be separated.

I thought the Scriptures says that the Word of God is able to separate the soul and spirit.

And, I thought Scriptures say we are given new bodies when we are in heaven, and here you say that the old flesh cannot be separated.

 

[agedman]

Don't understand at all where you're going with this.

I just showed where your thinking that God would never use one who committed atrocities or the use of atrocities is not correct.

I gave two examples.

 

[TCGreek]

OK, I have to mention this regarding Paul:

(1 Cor 9:27) but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

So Paul said this right before the passage in Corinthians I alluded to above, in which it talks about Christians being laid low for craving evil things. So Paul himself says even he could be disqualified - disqualified for what??? Salvation - no. But rather disqualified for the rapture.

And this I think would also explain why the Second Coming/Rapture never occurred in Paul's day, even though he and every other epistle writer were constantly implying it was just around the corner. The church of that day never achieved the level of purity that Christ required, so it never happened.

What Rapture? Where did you get that from?

 

[agedman]

Self-focus with a complete disregard for the people left behind.

I don't think it is always the case that it is self-focused and disregarding the people left behind.

Even the Lord mentioned that a good person would hardly lay down his life for a friend.

Besides, who actually holds the key to life?

Can anyone take their own or someone else's life if Christ really has the power over life?

 

[Mark_13]

I just showed where your thinking that God would never use one who committed atrocities or the use of atrocities is not correct.

I gave two examples.

No, you misunderstood me. I was speculating that someone like Comrade Duch could avoid excessive sorrow regarding the atrocities he committed and possibly suicide by realizing that God is ultimately in control and God is the one who allowed it all to happen. Have no idea if he went through that reasoning himself - may have just been given the gospel and the promise of the forgiveness of sin.

 

[Mark_13]

What Rapture? Where did you get that from?

I don't try to justify the rapture. Maybe there is no rapture. I sort of think there is though. Tell everyone there isn't a Rapture, I don't care. We'll see how that works out for you.

 

[MB]

MB - your interpretation of I John was OK, maybe that's what its saying, I don't know. I have my own agenda, i.e. the contention that if you sin enough you could miss the Rapture, and as blunt as that sounds I think its true. Denounce it at your own peril, imo.

Mark I'm sorry you do not seem to have any assurance in your walk with Christ. Don't you believe that when sin abounds Grace abounds much more?
Don't you sin? I've never met one soul who could live more than one day with out sinning. And by the way what makes you think I'm so terribly sinful. Was it because I was honest? You know you're not fooling anyone here, You are just as sinful as the rest of us.
MB

 

[agedman]

Mark I'm sorry you do not seem to have any assurance in your walk with Christ. Don't you believe that when sin abounds Grace abounds much more?
Don't you sin? I've never met one soul who could live more than one day with out sinning. And by the way what makes you think I'm so terribly sinful. Was it because I was honest? You know you're not fooling anyone here, You are just as sinful as the rest of us.
MB

There is nobody here as sinful as me.

Or is that a boast. But then my boasting would also be sinful.

So, now I have added sin upon sin.

I am as Paul said - a wretched man.

My bride calls me pitiful and pathetic.

 

[DaChaser1]

No, I don't believe it has. The translators cannot even agree on the proper verb tense there.

The NASB itself gives an entirely different spin on it that actually is more consistent with your interpretation:

(1 John 3:9) No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

But the translation you provided did not add "practice" in there, nor do several others, so there is quite evidently not consensus.

But regardless, were the Churches that Christ addresses in Revelation sinning or practicing sin, when he warned them he would cast them on a bed of suffering for their sexual immorality, or were they not born of God.

No offense, I just didn't find your particular spin on I John 3:9 particularly compelling - adequate I suppose as far as it goes, but hardly conclusive.

Actually, the Bible interpretes itself!

saved person new nature will lead them to obey and please God, but the flesh tries to stop that...

The saved has a choice to make...

pick submiting to his flesh, commits sins, submits to HS, good fruit!

Genuine one can sin awhile, even get caught up in it, but will eventually repent/confess and have fellowship restored, as their real nature NOT to stay in sin!

 

[DaChaser1]

What are the assumptions of this question?

Sinless perfection in the fullest since, that can and will be tempted by sin , but NEVER submit to it and actually commit the sin!

I DO NOT hold to that has being even a possibility, butsome have postedthey do!

 

[Mark_13]

Mark I'm sorry you do not seem to have any assurance in your walk with Christ. Don't you believe that when sin abounds Grace abounds much more?
Don't you sin? I've never met one soul who could live more than one day with out sinning. And by the way what makes you think I'm so terribly sinful. Was it because I was honest? You know you're not fooling anyone here, You are just as sinful as the rest of us.
MB

In absolute honesty, I never gave your personal sin level a moment's thought - so maybe its you who thinks you're terribly sinful.

I never said I considered I was righteous enough to know with certainty I would be leaving in the Rapture, either. The Rapture isn't the same as eternal salvation. Don't know how anyone could claim there are only Jews in revelation after Chapter 4.

There is a tipping point for sin. God tells one of the Churches that IF you don't repent you will be cast into great suffering. So therefore, they had already sinned a lot - if they repented they wouldn't have to face the penalty. If they kept on they would (whatever that penalty was).

 

[MB]

There is nobody here as sinful as me.

Or is that a boast. But then my boasting would also be sinful.

So, now I have added sin upon sin.

I am as Paul said - a wretched man.

My bride calls me pitiful and pathetic.

:thumbsup: No doubt He calls all of us that and it deserving.
MB

 

[freeatlast]

That isn't answering the question.

That is because I cannot believe you are serious.

 

[freeatlast]

Sinless perfection in the fullest since, that can and will be tempted by sin , but NEVER submit to it and actually commit the sin!

I DO NOT hold to that has being even a possibility, butsome have postedthey do!

Are you saying that you practice sin?

 

[DaChaser1]

In absolute honesty, I never gave your personal sin level a moment's thought - so maybe its you who thinks you're terribly sinful.

I never said I considered I was righteous enough to know with certainty I would be leaving in the Rapture, either. The Rapture isn't the same as eternal salvation. Don't know how anyone could claim there are only Jews in revelation after Chapter 4.

There is a tipping point for sin. God tells one of the Churches that IF you don't repent you will be cast into great suffering. So therefore, they had already sinned a lot - if they repented they wouldn't have to face the penalty. If they kept on they would (whatever that penalty was).

the rapture will be the time when the Lord jesus calls/summons his own unto Himself...

Who will be going?
Those sealed in/by the Holy Spirit of promise, THAT by itself confirms that we will ALL in the rapture, as the seal of the HS on ALL believers confirm us as His own/marked and set apart as his own!

the Cross atoned for ALL saints sins, so nothing will be hindering our"launching"

Now IF we are found to be in "less than desirable state" as in unconfessed sin, not walking as we should be, than Bhema seat of Christ handles that, after the Rapture!

 

[seekingthetruth]

the rapture will be the time when the Lord jesus calls/summons his own unto Himself...

Who will be going?
Those sealed in/by the Holy Spirit of promise, THAT by itself confirms that we will ALL in the rapture, as the seal of the HS on ALL believers confirm us as His own/marked and set apart as his own!

the Cross atoned for ALL saints sins, so nothing will be hindering our"launching"

Now IF we are found to be in "less than desirable state" as in unconfessed sin, not walking as we should be, than Bhema seat of Christ handles that, after the Rapture!

OK, suppose (for you reformers here) that a person is born "predestined" to be saved, but he has not yet come to the Lord by the time of the rapture?

Does he go to heaven because he is "predestined"?

Or does he go to Hell because he has not been saved yet?

John

 

[Mark_13]

the rapture will be the time when the Lord jesus calls/summons his own unto Himself...

Who will be going?
Those sealed in/by the Holy Spirit of promise, THAT by itself confirms that we will ALL in the rapture, as the seal of the HS on ALL believers confirm us as His own/marked and set apart as his own!

the Cross atoned for ALL saints sins, so nothing will be hindering our"launching"

Now IF we are found to be in "less than desirable state" as in unconfessed sin, not walking as we should be, than Bhema seat of Christ handles that, after the Rapture!

I'll give it some thought DaChaser. I like your attitude anyway. I like everyone here actually. But the threat of retribution for our sins, here on earth, is found throughout the New Testament Epistles. I've listed several passages in this thread. And what is the ultimate earthly retribution: I would submit it is to be left behind and subject to the System of the Beast, an alien power. Just as the Children of Israel were warned in the O.T. of impending retribution and subjugation to an alien power, so the Church is as as well.