can A Chrsitian Attain Sinless perfection before they Die?

[agedman]

And how many questions of mine have you answered?

You seem to consider the questions either as either too personal, or you want to avoid the answers, because it seems that you don't readily either have answers or your answers would expose your view as frail.

If you want to know why I am asking, it is because every believer should be ready and willing to answer such questions. It is Scriptural, for it says,

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."​

 

[agedman]

1. I was saved because I responded to the call of the gospel through the HS

2. I know where you are going with this. I believe the call of the gospel is available to every man that hears it. But every man does not choose to respond.

John

You responded to the call of the gospel through the Holy Spirit. That is good, and agreeable.

The second question was about conviction. What brought conviction that you even recognized the need to "respond to the call of the gospel through the Holy Spirit?"

 

[seekingthetruth]

You seem to consider the questions either as either too personal, or you want to avoid the answers, because it seems that you don't readily either have answers or your answers would expose your view as frail.

If you want to know why I am asking, it is because every believer should be ready and willing to answer such questions. It is Scriptural, for it says,

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear."​

Hey Rev Einstien, read my previous post.

I answered yours, even though I know you asked them with an agenda in mind, but you havent answered any of mine.

John

 

[agedman]

Hey Rev Einstien, read my previous post.

I answered yours, even though I know you asked them with an agenda in mind, but you havent answered any of mine.

John

Ask again, that I see them this time.

 

[seekingthetruth]

You responded to the call of the gospel through the Holy Spirit. That is good, and agreeable.

The second question was about conviction. What brought conviction that you even recognized the need to "respond to the call of the gospel through the Holy Spirit?"

Rom.12:1-3 KJV “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that Ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable serevice. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God gave every man "the measure of faith". I chose to exercise mine, most dont

This is the main verse i see against the arrogant and unbiblical doctrines of Calvinism. Calvinists think they are special, and prechosen, and deny that every man is given the same measure of faith.

John

 

[jbh28]

Rom.12:1-3 KJV “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that Ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable serevice. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.”[/COLOR]

God gave every man "the measure of faith". I chose to exercise mine, most dont

This is the main verse i see against the arrogant and unbiblical doctrines of Calvinism. Calvinists think they are special, and prechosen, and deny that every man is given the same measure of faith.

John

I've corrected you before and shall do it again. The doctrines of Calvinism do not teach that we are chosen because of anything in us. So the charge of "arrogant" is unwarranted and should not be used. If any charges of arrogance can be given, it would be the other way around.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I've corrected you before and shall do it again. The doctrines of Calvinism do not teach that we are chosen because of anything in us. So the charge of "arrogant" is unwarranted and should not be used. If any charges of arrogance can be given, it would be the other way around.

I am referring to the verse in Romans 12. It says that if you think that you are given more faith than anyone else then you "think more highly of himself than he ought to think".

I am just going by what the Bible says here.

John

 

[agedman]

Rom.12:1-3 KJV “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that Ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable serevice. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God gave every man "the measure of faith". I chose to exercise mine, most dont

This is the main verse i see against the arrogant and unbiblical doctrines of Calvinism. Calvinists think they are special, and prechosen, and deny that every man is given the same measure of faith.

John

Good point.


However is not the measure of faith, in context of the passage that you posted, addressed to believers and to what level of service they aspire? Was it not such a gift by God that no believer could puff them self up above any other? Certainly, I would agree that the measure of faith is certainly also the faith given that one believe for Ephesians states that it is the unmerited favor of God to give through faith (God's faith) the salvation.

However, no where in the Scriptures is the faith of God generally given to the whole world. See, here in Romans it states,

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shews mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardens.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
​

The Holy Spirit has but one specific task to the world. It is of reproving "the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment"
John 16:8

And Paul states of the believer that "Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world works death." 2 Cor. 7:10

So, what worked conviction in your heart that brought "godly sorrow (that) work(ed) repentance to salvation?"

 

[jbh28]

I am referring to the verse in Romans 12. It says that if you think that you are given more faith than anyone else then you "think more highly of himself than he ought to think".

I am just going by what the Bible says here.

John

That's not what that passage says. First of all, who is the "every man" in the passage. Second, The passage is about that God gives the faith, thus we cannot think more highly than we ought to think. Hence why I said really it would be more likely for me to say it about you.

my point though was that we believe we are elected, not because of something in use, but according to the good pleasure of God's will. There was nothing good in me for God to choose me. It wasn't because of anything I would do. It wasn't because I decided to choose. It wasn't nothing good in me. I have nothing to boast about.

 

[Winman]

You responded to the call of the gospel through the Holy Spirit. That is good, and agreeable.

The second question was about conviction. What brought conviction that you even recognized the need to "respond to the call of the gospel through the Holy Spirit?"

These are the kind of questions Calvinists commonly ask, which in their mind proves their doctrine, but does not. When a Calvinist asks why one man is convicted by the Holy Spirit and another is not, the Calvinist has already assumed that Total Depravity is a truth, and that an unregenerate man cannot possibly repent, and MUST be regenerated to have this ability.

But the scriptures show that unregenerate man can be convicted by the word of God.

Jhn 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

These men were not regenerate, in fact they were tempting Jesus so that they could accuse him of sin. Jesus simply responded and said that whosoever among them was without sin, that man should cast the first stone.

That caused these men to reflect on their own lives and whether they had sinned or not. It is notable that the eldest, or oldest men went away first. These men had their whole lives to reflect upon and knew they had sinned against God many times. But eventually even the youngest left.

And note they were convicted by their "own conscience". The word of God can speak to the conscience that every man is born with. All men have a conscience and know right from wrong.

So, this passage proves the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity is false and that unregenerate man can indeed be convicted by the word of God.

 

[agedman]

These are the kind of questions Calvinists commonly ask, which in their mind proves their doctrine, but does not. When a Calvinist asks why one man is convicted by the Holy Spirit and another is not, the Calvinist has already assumed that Total Depravity is a truth, and that an unregenerate man cannot possibly repent, and MUST be regenerated to have this ability.

But the scriptures show that unregenerate man can be convicted by the word of God.

Jhn 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

These men were not regenerate, in fact they were tempting Jesus so that they could accuse him of sin. Jesus simply responded and said that whosoever among them was without sin, that man should cast the first stone.

That caused these men to reflect on their own lives and whether they had sinned or not. It is notable that the eldest, or oldest men went away first. These men had their whole lives to reflect upon and knew they had sinned against God many times. But eventually even the youngest left.

And note they were convicted by their "own conscience". The word of God can speak to the conscience that every man is born with. All men have a conscience and know right from wrong.

So, this passage proves the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity is false and that unregenerate man can indeed be convicted by the word of God.

First, Calvinists do believe the "unregenerate" man is convicted by God.

Total Depravity does not prevent God bringing conviction. The Holy Spirit, until Christ returns, is commissioned to bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment to all the world.

Second, Jesus was "in the world," and the work of the Holy Spirit was being done by Him. That is why He referred to the Holy Spirit as "another comforter" for he was the first.

As such, Christ did what the work of the Holy Spirit does to the world in this time. He brought conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment to the would be stone throwers.

The fact that it was "by their own conscious" is mere a validation of what Paul stated about the sorrow of this world is death.

There was no saving conviction in their hearts or they would have fallen before the Lord. Rather, they left, starting from the oldest to the youngest, one by one, shamed.

Your desire to show this passage as proof that some scheme is false is wrong, and your work on the passage is faulty.

 

[Winman]

First, Calvinists do believe the "unregenerate" man is convicted by God.

Total Depravity does not prevent God bringing conviction. The Holy Spirit, until Christ returns, is commissioned to bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment to all the world.

Second, Jesus was "in the world," and the work of the Holy Spirit was being done by Him. That is why He referred to the Holy Spirit as "another comforter" for he was the first.

As such, Christ did what the work of the Holy Spirit does to the world in this time. He brought conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment to the would be stone throwers.

The fact that it was "by their own conscious" is mere a validation of what Paul stated about the sorrow of this world is death.

There was no saving conviction in their hearts or they would have fallen before the Lord. Rather, they left, starting from the oldest to the youngest, one by one, shamed.

Your desire to show this passage as proof that some scheme is false is wrong, and your work on the passage is faulty.

Well, I guess it all depends on which Calvinists you ask. These Calvinists do not believe an unregenerate man can be convicted;

Have you ever heard the Word of God preached and felt incredibly convicted by it? Have you ever then paused to look around and notice that others sitting nearby seem not to have noticed that the Word was even being preached? Some are dozing off, others are playing games on their iPhone and still others are yawning and staring at their watch. It makes you wonder, doesn’t it? How can some people be repeatedly exposed to the Word of God and not be deeply convicted by it? It’s true, though! Some people can regularly hear God’s Word and not feel the slightest guilt regarding their own sinfulness or lostness. The answer to the above question is really very simple; the Bible teaches that all men are born with the spiritual inability to respond to the Word of God (John 6:44; 6:65). They are “unregenerate”, and all unregenerate men are completely unable to spiritually respond to God’s Word in a saving or satisfactory manner, that is if they are left to themselves.

Source:

http://truth4longview.com/2011/05/18/the-spiritual-condition-of-natural-man/

This pastor says unregenerate men can hear the word of God and not feel the slightest guilt for their sinfulness. The passage I just showed refutes this.

Maybe you fellas should make up your mind what you believe. One says a natural or unregenerate man can be convicted of his sinfulness, another says he cannot.

This is why it is impossible to accurately represent Calvinism, and why Calvinists falsely constantly claim they are misrepresented. No two believes the same thing. So, even if you quote a Calvinist, another will say you misrepresent Calvinism.

 

[agedman]

Well, I guess it all depends on which Calvinists you ask. These Calvinists do not believe an unregenerate man can be convicted;



Source:

http://truth4longview.com/2011/05/18/the-spiritual-condition-of-natural-man/

This pastor says unregenerate men can hear the word of God and not feel the slightest guilt for their sinfulness. The passage I just showed refutes this.

Maybe you fellas should make up your mind what you believe. One says a natural or unregenerate man can be convicted of his sinfulness, another says he cannot.

This is why it is impossible to accurately represent Calvinism, and why Calvinists falsely constantly claim they are misrepresented. No two believes the same thing. So, even if you quote a Calvinist, another will say you misrepresent Calvinism.

Two problems with this post:

First, Your claim about Calvinists could just as well be validated among the Arminian view holders.

J. I. Packer and John Piper have a view similar to Calvin's on "limited atonement" in that they take 1 Timothy 2:5-6 as literal (as do I). Calvin's view would perhaps be slightly different using the statement, "the atonement is sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect." Others may hold an even more strict view. Calvin did not concern himself with much writing on this in The Institutes.

The point being that much is attributed to a view that may not be an actual part of the view but someone "going to seed" on some point.

Second, More to the point of this pastor's writing, he is accurate statement.

He states,

"the Bible teaches that all men are born with the spiritual inability to respond to the Word of God (John 6:44; 6:65). They are “unregenerate”, and all unregenerate men are completely unable to spiritually respond to God’s Word in a saving or satisfactory manner, that is if they are left to themselves."​

There is nothing wrong with that statement as he wrote.
In fact, even moderate Arminians would agree with that statement!

I find it a bit troubling that you would cite something that does not prove your point.

 

[Winman]

OK, so now I have to show you Reformed writers who say a man cannot be convicted unless he is first regenerated. Very well.

But this subjective representation, more or less incomplete, can not satisfy us now. It was to be expected that the supporters of "free will" would abuse it, by inferring that the origin and first activities of the work of salvation spring from man himself. A sinner, hearing the Word, is deeply impressed; persuaded by its threats and promises, he repents, arises, and accepts the Savior. Hence there is nothing more than a mere moral persuasion, obscuring the glorious origin of the new life. To resist this repulsive deforming of the truth, Maccovius, already in the days of the Synod of Dort, abandoned this more or less critical method to make regeneration the starting-point. He followed this order: "Knowledge of sin, redemption in Christ, regeneration, and only then faith." And this was consistent with the development of the Reformed doctrine. For as soon as the subjective method was abandoned, it became necessary in answer to the question, "What has God wrought in the soul?" to return to the first implanting of life. And then it became evident that God did not begin by leading the sinner to repentance, for repentance must be preceded by conviction of sin; nor by bringing him under the hearing of the word, for this requires an opened ear. Hence the first conscious and comparatively cooperative act of man is always preceded by the original act of God, planting in him the first principle of a new life, under which act man is wholly passive and unconscious.

Ok, notice when this writer says,

And then it became evident that God did not begin by leading the sinner to repentance, for repentance must be preceded by conviction of sin; nor by bringing him under the hearing of the word, for this requires an opened ear. Hence the first conscious and comparatively cooperative act of man is always preceded by the original act of God, planting in him the first principle of a new life,

To put this in layman's terms, this fellow is saying that a man must first be regenerated to have an "opened ear" before he is even willing to listen to the word of God, and this brings conviction, which brings repentance. And more, he says the man is passive, and not even conscious of this regeneration.

It's late, I've got to get to bed, but I will find you more Calvinists who say this tomorrow, it is not difficult to find.

 

[agedman]

To put this in layman's terms, this fellow is saying that a man must first be regenerated to have an "opened ear" before he is even willing to listen to the word of God, and this brings conviction, which brings repentance. And more, he says the man is passive, and not even conscious of this regeneration.

It's late, I've got to get to bed, but I will find you more Calvinists who say this tomorrow, it is not difficult to find.

I wouldn't bother.

I posted a thread that was not responded too about this very topic of regeneration.

Perhaps you might want to look at "union or rebel" and respond to those questions.

Then we can discuss regeneration and conviction and how they relate to the salvation.

 

[David Lamb]

On a serious note, I think yes - you can. Just think about it - can you go the next five minutes without sinning? What about the next hour? Day? Even Hitler wasn't sinning constantly.

I think we need to bear in mind what sin is - any disobedience of God, either by doing/saying/thinking things we should not, or by leaving undone/unsaid/unthought things which should be done. Jesus said in Luke 10.27:

"‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbour as yourself.’"
​

Not doing those things is sin, yet which of us would dare claim that we have loved God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind even for a moment? You mentioned Adolf Hitler. Do you think that he was only sinning when he was committing atrocities? Of course he was sinning then, but not only then. He was like the rest of us in that whenever he wasn't loving God with all his heart, soul, strength and mind, he was sinning.

Yes, we might well be able to go for quite a long time without committing any of those outward, headline-grabbing sins like robbing banks, but sin is a matter of the heart.

I should add (to save misunderstanding) that I am definetely not saying, "We cannott attain sinless perfection in this life, so what's the point of even attempting to obey God?"

 

[Aaron]

is that state able to be reached by us or not?

Of course. In Christ. In Christ I have attained sinless perfection.

If you're asking, does that yet appear? Not until the Last Trump.

(I'm amazed at some of the superstitious notions that have been posted in this thread.)

 

[Aaron]

. . . but sin is a matter of the heart.

Spot on! :thumbs:

 

[freeatlast]

I think we need to bear in mind what sin is - any disobedience of God, either by doing/saying/thinking things we should not, or by leaving undone/unsaid/unthought things which should be done. Jesus said in Luke 10.27:

"‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbour as yourself.’"
​

Not doing those things is sin, yet which of us would dare claim that we have loved God with all our heart, soul, strength and mind even for a moment? You mentioned Adolf Hitler. Do you think that he was only sinning when he was committing atrocities? Of course he was sinning then, but not only then. He was like the rest of us in that whenever he wasn't loving God with all his heart, soul, strength and mind, he was sinning.

Yes, we might well be able to go for quite a long time without committing any of those outward, headline-grabbing sins like robbing banks, but sin is a matter of the heart.

I should add (to save misunderstanding) that I am definetely not saying, "We cannott attain sinless perfection in this life, so what's the point of even attempting to obey God?"

David you seem to be a very humble man with a very gentle spirit and for that I praise God. However for you to say that no one can love the Lord with all their heart soul and strength for even a moment is outrageous! There has been a many a men and women who have literally given their lives and I have no doubt that they did so loving the Lord with all their heart soul and strength in those moments.
My brother you need to seriously re-think your position.

 

[Aaron]

You need to change your handle to "in shackles." You have a very, very small view of God and His law. You do not know love if you even begin to entertain the notion that one, in this life, has loved God with all his heart.