Can a church avoid theology but only teach the Bible?

[evangelist6589]

Not in the Bible that I read! It's kind of hard to avoid those topics when you're teaching the Word of God.

Theology is the study of God. It's not "themes".

Themes throughout the Bible such as

SIN
HEAVEN & hell
Holiness
Depravity of Man
Angels & Demons
Bibliology
Tithing
The Flood
Etc..

 

[padredurand]

You missed the entire point. I mean mentioning the issues he fights for such as LORDSHIP Salvation.

You said

There are churches out there that dodge controversial issues, dodge all of Mac's controversial books (Gospel According to Jesus, Hard to Believe, Strange Fire, etc..) but will teach his biblical exposition books and commentaries. Also these churches will focus much on discipleship (a good thing) but be very seeker-friendly in their evangelism and church philosophy. Not saying these churches are doing it wrong in every area, but I just do not believe its biblical to dodge controversial subjects and theology. The Bible and studying it is our main focus, but studying it in depth will detail controversial issues in the church. A church can spend all its time studying the book of Acts, but hardly touch on the book of Romans.

First of all you never mention Lordship salvation in the OP. I can't guess what you are talking about. Your OP was talking about dodging controversial issues, dodging MacArthur's controversial books and later dodging theology. You never mention Lordship salvation until your reply to Annsni.

I'll raise my hand as far avoiding Lordship salvation. I will never teach a so-called doctrine that will not stand the biblical test.

Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Soli Deo Gloria. You don't even have to be a Calvinist to stand there.

 

[evangelist6589]

A hearty AMEN to that my Bother!!:thumbsup:

While probably all pastors/preachers have what we might call "his own style" of presenting his messages to his congregation, if, as DHK mentioned, he is faithful in conveying God's Word, he will invariably encounter "doctrine."

Although he may not call it as such, "doctrine(s)" will, as an end result, show up.

In my almost 50 years as a born-again Christian, I've had the privilege of sitting under the ministries of about 10 men who were or now are my Pastor.

While some tended to be more "topical" in their individual sermons, others were more "straight expository" in their messages.

From time to time, I've heard some preachers who did have certain "hobby-horses," but I tend to shy away from those kind of "ministers(?)."

The church of which I'm currently a member -- Lighthouse Christian Fellowship ( www.lighthouseministries.org ) -- is one that has several "preaching Elders," and, as a consequence, we're blessed with a variety of "preaching styles."

Anyone who takes the time to regularly attend our services here at LCF for any length of time is certain to receive "The Whole Counsel of God" regardless if it's presented strictly as "Doctrine"!

I do not agree with this philosophy.

The NGLC will bring together 60-70 key emerging leaders in the missional kingdom work from all over the world.

http://lighthouseministries.org/church/2014/02/next-generation-leadership-conference-june-2-7/

Do they trust in the sufficiency of scripture or not? Read Psalms 19, and especially 1 Cor 2:1-5

And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
---

By that lots of churches today would have rejected the Apostle Paul if he were alive today as he was not a gifted speaker. So many churches these days focus too much on scholarship and excellency of speech and not as much on a spirit filled leader.

 

[evangelist6589]

You said



First of all you never mention Lordship salvation in the OP. I can't guess what you are talking about. Your OP was talking about dodging controversial issues, dodging MacArthur's controversial books and later dodging theology. You never mention Lordship salvation until your reply to Annsni.

I'll raise my hand as far avoiding Lordship salvation. I will never teach a so-called doctrine that will not stand the biblical test.

Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Soli Deo Gloria. You don't even have to be a Calvinist to stand there.

Anyone familiar with Mac is aware that he is a big advocate for Lordship salvation. You have dismissed his arguments and never even heard them. This sounds EXACTLY like the way a Weslyian would reason.

 

[evangelist6589]

Good for them! Churches should be about equipping the saints to reach the lost, sanctifying the brethren, teaching believers how to walk in the spirit and exhibit the fruit of the spirit, how to be disciples, etc. This would be my definition of lordship. I'm certain your hero MacArthur has a different definition.

Believers don't need to hear about total depravity, sin, hell, on a constant basis.

No one ever said they needed to hear them every sunday, but they should hear them sometimes and not at all as what most churches do.

 

[Benjamin]

I have seen it happen a number of times. A church will skip around LORDSHIP, sin, hell, and the depravity of man.

If you don't even realize that your view of "depravity" is built on systematic theological doctrines and presuppositions that these doctrinal interpretations are true I strongly suggest you meditate on the following verses and take them to heart concerning this issue!


(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[padredurand]

Anyone familiar with Mac is aware that he is a big advocate for Lordship salvation. You have dismissed his arguments and never even heard them. This sounds EXACTLY like the way a Weslyian would reason.

Never heard of them? He wrote "The Gospel According to Jesus" in 1988. This Lordship salvation stuff might be new to you but some of us have been around the barn once or twice.

Next, the word is Wesleyan not Weslyan.

Third, you obviously don't know anything about Wesleyan reasoning. Wesley expanded on the Anglican position that Scripture is the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Subsequently Scripture is viewed through the lens of tradition, reason and experience. It's call the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. Google it.

Here's how it works. Paul wrote:

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 NAS77

Step one: Scripture is the primary source of doctrine. Scripture says I am justified by faith in Jesus Christ and not of any work of the Law.

Step Two: Tradition. Lordship salvation wasn't even a phrase used in theological circles until the 1950's.

Step Three: Reason. You brought up themes. Try this one on for size:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NAS77

That is a theme repeated throughout Scripture. It is repeated in Romans 3

24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Reason says that if the Bible repeatedly say man is justified by Grace through faith that man is justified by Grace through faith. Reason also says that if a man is saved outside of works the the whole premise of Lordship as a condition of salvation is false

Fourth: Experience. Experience says that when God has set the conditions for the redemption of His elect nobody has the right to change the rules regardless of how many books he has written.

 

[Revmitchell]

I have seen it happen a number of times. A church will skip around LORDSHIP, sin, hell, and the depravity of man. I am sure you do it all the time. Judging by the way you post here on this board I would guess so.

REally? Show me those posts that have convinced you of that!

And by the way you still have shown you have no idea what you are talking about. I do not know what school you went to to put you in so much debt, but you need to go back and actually take a theology class.

 

[ktn4eg]

I do not agree with this philosophy.

Evangelist6589:

My friend, it's certainly your prerogative to disagree with the philosophy in which a particular missionary organization has established in order to reach the lost if you wish to do so.

I'm not sure of the extent of your investigation(s) into this program that Lighthouse Christian Fellowship is sponsoring, but I do have my doubts that you have done much of it concerning the goals that the Center for Global Missions' Next Generation Leaders Conference is hosting at LCF this coming June.

By the tone of your comments in your post from which the above quote was taken (#23), it seems to me that you believe that the NGLC is merely a gathering of flashy, high-powered, and flesh-appealing speakers.

If that is the case, my brother, then you are sadly mistaken---because the NGLC is anything but that.

Perhaps you have a completely different philosophy with regard to how an individual or organization ought to "do mission work." If you do, that's fine with me.

OTOH, to openly condemn another organization's approach (which is exactly what you've done) to doing global mission work seems to me to reflect a rather negative "It's-My-Way-Or-The-Highway" attitude.

Personally, I wish that you would try to see things differently concerning this vitally important aspect of reaching the world's lost people groups.

To me, I find it quite sad that we, as Brothers In Christ, have to discuss such matters as this in a public forum on Baptist Board [something that I feel would have been better done by means of BB's PM options], but, since you've opted to openly condemn the NGLC in your post in this thread, I find no other alternative than to say what I have said about this matter in this post.

May God Bless you, my friend, in your efforts to which He has called you to evangelize those with whom you come in contact.

 

[quantumfaith]

Never heard of them? He wrote "The Gospel According to Jesus" in 1988. This Lordship salvation stuff might be new to you but some of us have been around the barn once or twice.

Next, the word is Wesleyan not Weslyan.

Third, you obviously don't know anything about Wesleyan reasoning. Wesley expanded on the Anglican position that Scripture is the primary source and standard for Christian doctrine. Subsequently Scripture is viewed through the lens of tradition, reason and experience. It's call the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. Google it.

Here's how it works. Paul wrote:

nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:16 NAS77

Step one: Scripture is the primary source of doctrine. Scripture says I am justified by faith in Jesus Christ and not of any work of the Law.

Step Two: Tradition. Lordship salvation wasn't even a phrase used in theological circles until the 1950's.

Step Three: Reason. You brought up themes. Try this one on for size:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 NAS77

That is a theme repeated throughout Scripture. It is repeated in Romans 3

24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Reason says that if the Bible repeatedly say man is justified by Grace through faith that man is justified by Grace through faith. Reason also says that if a man is saved outside of works the the whole premise of Lordship as a condition of salvation is false

Fourth: Experience. Experience says that when God has set the conditions for the redemption of His elect nobody has the right to change the rules regardless of how many books he has written.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[quantumfaith]

Evangelist6589:

My friend, it's certainly your prerogative to disagree with the philosophy in which a particular missionary organization has established in order to reach the lost if you wish to do so.

I'm not sure of the extent of your investigation(s) into this program that Lighthouse Christian Fellowship is sponsoring, but I do have my doubts that you have done much of it concerning the goals that the Center for Global Missions' Next Generation Leaders Conference is hosting at LCF this coming June.

By the tone of your comments in your post from which the above quote was taken (#23), it seems to me that you believe that the NGLC is merely a gathering of flashy, high-powered, and flesh-appealing speakers.

If that is the case, my brother, then you are sadly mistaken---because the NGLC is anything but that.

Perhaps you have a completely different philosophy with regard to how an individual or organization ought to "do mission work." If you do, that's fine with me.

OTOH, to openly condemn another organization's approach (which is exactly what you've done) to doing global mission work seems to me to reflect a rather negative "It's-My-Way-Or-The-Highway" attitude.

Personally, I wish that you would try to see things differently concerning this vitally important aspect of reaching the world's lost people groups.

To me, I find it quite sad that we, as Brothers In Christ, have to discuss such matters as this in a public forum on Baptist Board [something that I feel would have been better done by means of BB's PM options], but, since you've opted to openly condemn the NGLC in your post in this thread, I find no other alternative than to say what I have said about this matter in this post.

May God Bless you, my friend, in your efforts to which He has called you to evangelize those with whom you come in contact.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[quantumfaith]

Furthermore, no one has to date informed me as to what exactly a "seeker-friendly" church is all about. We have MANY people who visit, attend and SEEK to know what God and Christianity are all about. Often they are folks who have lived their lives with no consideration of a creator much less a redeemer. In most cases the events and circumstances of their lives have brought them often to the point of being broken.

If this is a seeker friendly church, I am HONORED to be a part of such. HONORED to be a church that points people to the redemption and restoration that awaits them in relationship to their creator and redeemer.

 

[evangelist6589]

This is what I said.

I do not agree with this philosophy.

Quote:
The NGLC will bring together 60-70 key emerging leaders in the missional kingdom work from all over the world.
http://lighthouseministries.org/chur...ence-june-2-7/

Do they trust in the sufficiency of scripture or not? Read Psalms 19, and especially 1 Cor 2:1-5

I asked questions and said I did not agree with this philosophy based upon certain scriptures. I never once condemned them but simply stated the scriptures.

Evangelist6589:

My friend, it's certainly your prerogative to disagree with the philosophy in which a particular missionary organization has established in order to reach the lost if you wish to do so.

I'm not sure of the extent of your investigation(s) into this program that Lighthouse Christian Fellowship is sponsoring, but I do have my doubts that you have done much of it concerning the goals that the Center for Global Missions' Next Generation Leaders Conference is hosting at LCF this coming June.

By the tone of your comments in your post from which the above quote was taken (#23), it seems to me that you believe that the NGLC is merely a gathering of flashy, high-powered, and flesh-appealing speakers.

If that is the case, my brother, then you are sadly mistaken---because the NGLC is anything but that.

Perhaps you have a completely different philosophy with regard to how an individual or organization ought to "do mission work." If you do, that's fine with me.

OTOH, to openly condemn another organization's approach (which is exactly what you've done) to doing global mission work seems to me to reflect a rather negative "It's-My-Way-Or-The-Highway" attitude.

Personally, I wish that you would try to see things differently concerning this vitally important aspect of reaching the world's lost people groups.

To me, I find it quite sad that we, as Brothers In Christ, have to discuss such matters as this in a public forum on Baptist Board [something that I feel would have been better done by means of BB's PM options], but, since you've opted to openly condemn the NGLC in your post in this thread, I find no other alternative than to say what I have said about this matter in this post.

May God Bless you, my friend, in your efforts to which He has called you to evangelize those with whom you come in contact.

 

[evangelist6589]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

When will you learn that this is not Facebook?

 

[evangelist6589]

Furthermore, no one has to date informed me as to what exactly a "seeker-friendly" church is all about. We have MANY people who visit, attend and SEEK to know what God and Christianity are all about. Often they are folks who have lived their lives with no consideration of a creator much less a redeemer. In most cases the events and circumstances of their lives have brought them often to the point of being broken.

If this is a seeker friendly church, I am HONORED to be a part of such. HONORED to be a church that points people to the redemption and restoration that awaits them in relationship to their creator and redeemer.

Read the book Ashamed of the Gospel When the church becomes like the World.

 

[quantumfaith]

Read the book Ashamed of the Gospel When the church becomes like the World.

I read quite a bit Evang. Just don't read many books that you find interesting. I suspect too, that if I suggested YOU read something I find interesting and/or edifying You would not be so inclined.

 

[quantumfaith]

When will you learn that this is not Facebook?

If you do not like the way I express my appreciation and agreement with something said. Tough Cookies.

There are numerous "When will you.....questions that I could ask of you, but I refrain from doing so.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

Answer to OP: what do you mean by "theology"? I believe everyone is a theologian to SOME degree. We all think about God....even fool who says in his heart that there is no God. Just my $0.02.

 

[rivers1222]

If you do not like the way I express my appreciation and agreement with something said. Tough Cookies.

There are numerous "When will you.....questions that I could ask of you, but I refrain from doing so.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Could'nt help it!:saint:

 

[DHK]

Answer to OP: what do you mean by "theology"? I believe everyone is a theologian to SOME degree. We all think about God....even fool who says in his heart that there is no God. Just my $0.02.

"a study of God"? One would be totally ignorant of God he didn't study or meditate about God at least just a little bit. Even the atheist knows "there is a God" whom he refuses to acknowledge