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Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again.
- Thread starter charles_creech78
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Brother Bob said:
How we treat sin communicates alot about our heart and our love for God. Jesus said if we love Him, we would keep His commandments. It would be wise to keep the fear of God prevalent. We tend to reconcile God's faithfulness as principles for safe boundaries. He is God. He is to be feared. I cannot read Hebrews 10:26 in my Bible without my fear of God making the hair on my skin tingle. It's clear we are but dust compared to His riches in glory. Christ is the only covering that keeps us from the most strict wrath in the universe. What Christian would be so bold as to gamble with that covering? Be ye therefore perfect, even as He is perfect.
The word "perfect" teleios, means complete. It also means mature. It does not mean sinless in any sense of the wordl. In fact John allows for sin. He knows we will be tempted and fall into sin. Thus he writes:mmetts said:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
He also gives the warning to them that believe in sinless perfection:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Brother Bob
New Member
Well DHK; we have been here before and probably will not agree this time, but what you say that the "sin unto death" is a early death, does not make sense.
1. Unless God took his life before he committed the "sin unto death", this man would have two problems.
a. He would die an early death as you say because he committed this "sin unto death".
b. He still would have one problem left, and that is "repentance" again, of which there is no repentance after death.
2. You answer to this would still leave a Christian (as you say) still unrepentant, therefore subject to the second death.
Now if it were as Jesus said impossible for this to take place, then a Christian could sin, but not a "sin unto death".
As Jesus said, there is a sin, and there is a "sin unto death" that I would not say to pray for.
I do and would rather believe that the Grace of God which saves a man, does not leave him, but rather stays with that saved man to keep him until the Lord comes again. I don't think that is a "sinless man" and neither do I think it is Catholic belief.
Think about it DHK; you solution would still leave that man a "unrepentant man", which would be subject to the second death. You answer of an "early death" would not help that man/woman at all, for they would still be a "unrepentant sinner".
BBob,
Why not quote this verse of John also DHK:
1Jo 3:9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
If someone shoots you, then you will die an early death, for fear not man who can destroy the body.
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pinoybaptist said:
I'm lost as to what you're trying to say in response to my post. The issue in this specific case was immediate death. They lied to the Holy Spirit and died on the spot. There's something to learn about that, but I don't think the message was that "If you lie to the Holy Spirit, God will strike you down dead at that very moment." If that was the lesson, I'm willing to bet God hasn't made good on it in every case.
I never said it is ok to sin. But we do have a sin nature, and a propensity to sin. It is a fact. We will sin. Thus John makes provision for it in both 1Jn.1:9 and in 1Jn.2:1. If you do not believe this please give an explanation for the verses being present in your Bible.mmetts said:
Most of the time the Old English word "perfect" in your KJV means 'complete" and ought to be translated that way. We are complete in the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The Bible did not make Timothy perfect as in sinless. It completed him as a Christian. It made him more mature. It was profitable to him. He was made complete thoroughly furnished unto all good works through the study of God's Word. It didn't make him perfect as in sinless. Sinless perfection is error. It is theological error which needs to be condemned. It leads many away from the truth of God's Word. No man can live a sinless life--no one. In fact you can't even be sinless for one day; probably not even for one hour. If you say you can, you don't have a right view of the holiness of God.
charles_creech78 said:
Unto physical death? Certainly.
For instance, I can drink myself into a drunken stupor ( whichh is a sin),
then get behing the wheel and drive my car (which is against the law...which is also sinful) and crash into someone else's moving car killing the both of us (murder....which is sinful).
Or....I can willingly take my own life which is sinful.
Or I can fall into heroine addiction and die of respiratory failure. Being
hooked on drugs is sinful.
So, yes. There IS a sin unto death.
PASTOR MHG
New Member
Brother Bob said:
Please help me understand your position Brother Bob...
Are you saying that a "Regenerate" man who dies with one unrepented of sin has either not been regenerated in the first place, or has been "unregenerated?"
If this is your position, then the problem is your understanding of the context of John's epistle. The context of the letter from the very first chapter throughout is "fellowship with God." You have seemingly misunderstood the context to be "relationship with God."
Max
charles_creech78
New Member
Amen brother Bob.There is no second death to them that are in Christ Jesus. The key word was Born Again. Them that are born again cannot sinn for his seed remaneth in him and he cannot sin for he is BORN OF GOD. That seed is Jesus Christ. Which you are born again of. Every one will die naturly. But spiriturly them that are born again will not see the second death. So a sin unto death is a spiritual death. It can't be a natrual death because we are all going to die a natrual death. He has no respeactor of person for we have all sin and come short of the glory of God. We have all sin and we will all die the natrual death. But to them that have not Christ shall see the second death. To them that have not Christ are under a sin unto death because they have not repented and was not born again. There for them that have Christ they cannot sin a sin unto death because they are keeped by the power of God which is Jesus Christ.Brother Bob said:
DHK said:
It might be a common misconception because of the age of salvation we are in. Some have over-realized eschatological views (loosely quoted form DA Carson). DHK, do you think it is an impatience that causes the doctrinal error of perfection?
On the other hand, there is a sound biblical doctrine that can be sound asleep (another DA Carson quote). Either be hot or cold. If we are lukewarm... I'm 24, so I'm very eager to be a pastor. Your Timothy quote hit right at home with me.
charles_creech78
New Member
Read the title again. You cannot sin a sin like this being Born Again.That is if you have the spirit of God in you. Not you that person that sins like this. You cannot sin a sin like this if you have God in you. So you say you have never done these thing that you speak. You never looked on a women to lust after her. But what I am tring to say is all sin like this that you speak of is the same As what I speak of in the sight of God. It is the same in his sight. This is the way God sees it. If you look on a women to lust after her you have killed someone in the sight of God. Sin like these is all equal in the sight of God. This is a sin unto Death.Them that are born again cannot sin a sin unto death. So the answer is no they can't sinn like this after being BORN AGAIN.
We are commanded to grow in grace. The entire doctrine of sanctification implies that the Christian life involves maturity and growth. In that process there is failure, and sin. God never condones it, but allows it to happen. The corrective process usually results in a stronger Christian at the end. We can see this process in place through the first epistle of Corinthians just as we can see the process of persecution and suffering as a process of purifying and maturing the Christian in the first epistle of Peter.mmetts said:
Jesus said:
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Can any man love the Lord thy God, with all his heart and mind for just one mind, or even one hour. What would it take? For one hour every thought would have to be completely submitted to Christ. Every part of your body and all your emotions completely submitted to his service--just for one hour. Maybe you can do it for one hour. But for one day? For one week? For one month? for one year? When would you break? When would your thought processes be taken away from totally worshiping Christ, and allowing no other sinful thought into your mind? When would your body cease from serving Him alone? How long could you keep this up. The minute you stop, you sin. Realize the meaning of this verse.
And the second is like unto it.
Brother Bob
New Member
If it is a sin that would do no good to pray for then yes, that person that died with a unrependant "sin unto death" is certainly lost. That is what the whole bible is about. That is what salvation is about. That is the difference between the sheep and the goats. That is why God puts some on the left and some on the right. That is why there is a Heaven, and there is a Hell. That my friend is the difference between a Christian and a ungodly person. That if fact is what Jesus said: "if you die in your sins where I am you cannot come". That is why he told us to go and preach "repent ye, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
Jesus said, even if he died and early death: There would be no "repentance" for that "sin unto death".
Hbr 6:4For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
Hbr 10:26¶For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
How do you possible have an answer for that? These are not my words.
Mat 6:24¶No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Rom 6:16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
What kind of sins have you read the Apostles and Deciples committed?
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JustChristian
New Member
For most of this thread, responders have missinterpreted the question. We are not talking about physical death here. We are talking about the second death which determines your eternal destiny, Heaven or Hell.
The question is whether someone can lose their salvation. I say yes. Christ said that we cannot obey two masters, Himself or the world. He said that those who love Him will keep His commandments.
Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
What does being cast into fire mean. You can interpret as you will but I interpret it as being cast into HELL.
The question is whether someone can lose their salvation. I say yes. Christ said that we cannot obey two masters, Himself or the world. He said that those who love Him will keep His commandments.
Jhn 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
What does being cast into fire mean. You can interpret as you will but I interpret it as being cast into HELL.
And so it is.BaptistBeliever said:
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
The person that is not abidiing in Christ is not connected to Christ. He no doubt never was. That is why he cannot bear fruit.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Unsaved people do not bear fruit. The end of the unsaved is indeed hell. It is not speaking of the saved in these two verses.
Brother Bob
New Member
It takes an extremely long stretching of eisegesis to get from the "sheep and goats" clause of Matt. 25 to the "no repentance" clause in Heb. 6 to the "sin unto death" clause in I Jo 5.Brother Bob said:
Let's not confuse the different issues,here.
Ed
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