Can a man sin a sin unto death after being born again.

[charles_creech78]

We accept all the other scripture teaching that OSAS, but this one which is telling us how impossible it is for a child of God to go back to the devil, we don't accept it for what it is. IMO

Brother Bob do you believe a child of God can go back to the devil after being born again.

 

[EdSutton]

Yes you can die like this. But you cannot do this being born again

Sorry you don't see Paul and the Corinthian 'brethren' as "born again". :tear:

Is that some advanced revelation over what I read and quoted, maybe? Maybe found in the book of Calamity or Opinion, for example?

Ed

 

[DHK]

Yes you can die like this. But you cannot do this being born again

You cannot do what born again?
David committed adultery and then tried to cover it up by murdering the husband of Bathsheba. He was still called a "man after God's own heart." Was he saved or not?

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob do you believe a child of God can go back to the devil after being born again.

No, not and commit a sin unto death, unfortunantly, the devil is a thorn in the flesh that will buffet all of God's children until we die, but we shall never fall from Grace and commit a sin unto death, we is kept by the power of God. We all sin, which is of the devil but its not sins such as killing, adultery, stealing etc. Our tongues gets us into trouble a lot. We fail to do what we should a lot. We are none perfect, but we do not fall from Grace into sins unto death. We have the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" and the "mind of Christ" of which David did not. There were times God was not pleased with David.

I believe in once saved always saved Charles.

1Cr 1:8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

Eph 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Jud 1:24¶Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

[charles_creech78]

No, not and commit a sin unto death, unfortunantly, the devil is a thorn in the flesh that will buffet all of God's children until we die, but we shall never fall from Grace and commit a sin unto death, we is kept by the power of God. We all sin, which is of the devil but its not sins such as killing, adultery, stealing etc. Our tongues gets us into trouble a lot. We fail to do what we should a lot. We are none perfect, but we do not fall from Grace into sins unto death. We have the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" and the "mind of Christ" of which David did not. There were times God was not pleased with David.

I believe in once saved always saved Charles.

1Cr 1:8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

Eph 4:30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Jud 1:24¶Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Amen I believe that to.

 

[charles_creech78]

You cannot do what born again?
David committed adultery and then tried to cover it up by murdering the husband of Bathsheba. He was still called a "man after God's own heart." Was he saved or not?

You need to watch what you are saying because If you are born again that means you have Christ in your soul. You are not of your self you are of Chrict and Christ cannot murder and other such things that you say David did.The old law did not make a man perfect like the new law does.

 

[JustChristian]

And so it is.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

The person that is not abidiing in Christ is not connected to Christ. He no doubt never was. That is why he cannot bear fruit.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Unsaved people do not bear fruit. The end of the unsaved is indeed hell. It is not speaking of the saved in these two verses.

Any Biblical support for your assumption "He no doubt ever was?"

 

[DHK]

You need to watch what you are saying because If you are born again that means you have Christ in your soul. You are not of your self you are of Chrict and Christ cannot murder and other such things that you say David did.The old law did not make a man perfect like the new law does.

I do watch what I say. Do you?
Here is what the Bible says about David:

Psalms 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
--David believed in OSAS, one might say. In other words he knew he was saved. In spite of what he had done he was sure of his salvation. What had been broken was his fellowship with God. He doesn't pray for salvation; he prays that the joy of his salvation might be restored. There is a big difference. He was already saved; already justified.

Psalms 51:2-3 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
--David was very conscious of his sin. His sin caused a separation between him and His God (Jehovah). It was a matter of fellowship, not salvation. He was asking for forgiveness that fellowship might be restored. This entire psalm of repentance has nothing to do with salvation. Even if he had died without this repentance he would have gone to heaven. He was already redeemed.

What does the NT say about David?
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--This is the principle that Paul is teaching--Salvation is by faith, and not of works. He uses both Abraham and David as examples. Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness sake. He wasn't saved by his works, but because he believed. Now Paul says this about David:

Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

David was made righteous by his belief in Jehovah. It had nothing to do with what he did or did not do. David testified that he was that man to whom the Lord would not impute sin. He was assured of his salvation. Even Paul attests the same about David quoting David from Psalms 32:1,2. He had not lost his salvation.

 

[DHK]

Any Biblical support for your assumption "He no doubt ever was?"

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--A "dead" person (unsaved one) has no life (is not spiritually alive). So Paul says about the Ephesian believers--you were once dead (spiritually), but you are now alive (spiritually--born again).
Live only comes from Christ. He is the vine; we are the branches. A saved person draws on Christ because he is connected to Christ via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. An unsaved person has no life. He is disconnected from the vine, and never had any life in him. He is dead. That is what Paul said about the Ephesian believers before they were saved. If you are alive (born again), you will indeed bear fruit, as Christ says you will. A dead and lifeless branch bears no fruit. How could it have been saved if it was saved.

 

[charles_creech78]

The answer is an early death or an untimely death, a death that doesn't have to happen such as those recorded in 1Cor.11:30 that happened because of the abuse of the Lord's Table.

1 John 5:16-17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

These verses are addressed to believers. "If any man see his brother".
It is better if a believer who is bringing shame to the name of Christ be taken out of this world before more damage is done to the name of Christ, then he live, and face even greater loss of reward and/or judgement at the JSOC.

My brother this sin unto death is not to the believers. You stoped on vers.16 . You should have read on to vers 18. For vers. 18 is talking to the believers vers. 18 We know that whosoever is BORN of GOD sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. If a man see his BROTHER sin a sin NOT UNTO DEATH. The sin this brother did is NOT UNTO DEATH. A born again christain will not sin a sin UNTO DEATH. He will sin a sin not unto death. Because sin is condemed in the flesh. He was not talking about a brother sinning a sin unto death.

 

[JustChristian]

No?? Really?? Was Paul a Christian, at this time? Here he said even he (Paul) "am carnal." He did not say he used to be carnal, in the past. I believe these are Christian whom Paul is addressing, by the language, don't you?? And what is he about to say about them? Let's see! Uh, seems Paul thinks they are carnal for he says so. You did note that he calls them brethren, including himself with them, when he says "brethren". He says they are "God's building", something that cannot be said of the unsaved, and also calls them "God's field." And he equates carnal with babes in Christ, and contrasts it with spiritual. They were still sucking on that milk, spiritually, and could not handle the meat of the Word, yet. Hence carnal is equal to immature, and is contrasted with spiritually mature.

With all respect, I think I prefer Paul's opinion (Ya' know, bein' as it is in the Bible and all...) over one that says "There is no such thing as a carnal Christian."

Ed

I'm not really interested in word games. I'm more interested in the meaning of the gospel. Jesus Christ said:

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

The way I interpret this is that while we may continue to sin, Christians will follow Christ as their Lord and Master. To be a slave to sin is to be lost.

 

[charles_creech78]

I do watch what I say. Do you?
Here is what the Bible says about David:

Psalms 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
--David believed in OSAS, one might say. In other words he knew he was saved. In spite of what he had done he was sure of his salvation. What had been broken was his fellowship with God. He doesn't pray for salvation; he prays that the joy of his salvation might be restored. There is a big difference. He was already saved; already justified.

Psalms 51:2-3 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
--David was very conscious of his sin. His sin caused a separation between him and His God (Jehovah). It was a matter of fellowship, not salvation. He was asking for forgiveness that fellowship might be restored. This entire psalm of repentance has nothing to do with salvation. Even if he had died without this repentance he would have gone to heaven. He was already redeemed.

What does the NT say about David?
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--This is the principle that Paul is teaching--Salvation is by faith, and not of works. He uses both Abraham and David as examples. Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness sake. He wasn't saved by his works, but because he believed. Now Paul says this about David:

Romans 4:6-8 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

David was made righteous by his belief in Jehovah. It had nothing to do with what he did or did not do. David testified that he was that man to whom the Lord would not impute sin. He was assured of his salvation. Even Paul attests the same about David quoting David from Psalms 32:1,2. He had not lost his salvation.

So what are you saying you can sin like David did being born again. Is that not calling the holy Ghost a unclean thing. If I am born again and I go around murdering people and say that I am born again that I have the Holy Ghost in me is that not blashpeme. That is why I said you need to watch what you say.

 

[Brother Bob]

Amen Charles C;

 

[charles_creech78]

DHK you said david believed in OSAS. what is OSAS?

 

[charles_creech78]

I am not tring to start a fight with you DHK and I see your point about David and David was under the old law and the Holy Ghost was not yet given to them. JOHN 7:39 (But this spake he of the spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Them that believe in Jesus have the spirit of the Holy Ghost. And we are under a New law. John 14:16 And I will pray the father, and he shall give you another COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever. John 14:26 But the COMFORTER,which is the HOLY GHOST, whom the father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:17 Even the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not neither knoweth him: but ye know him, for HE DWELLETH WITH YOU, and SHALL BE IN YOU.

 

[DHK]

So what are you saying you can sin like David did being born again. Is that not calling the holy Ghost a unclean thing. If I am born again and I go around murdering people and say that I am born again that I have the Holy Ghost in me is that not blashpeme. That is why I said you need to watch what you say.

It doesn't matter what I say. It matters what the Bible says. What does the Word of God say. In order here is what God said:
1. David lusted.
2. David committed adultery.
3. David murdered.
4. David was confronted with his sin by Nathan,

2 Samuel 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

My question to you: Shall I believe your philosophy based on man's opinion, or shall I believe what the Bible tells me? I already know what my answer is.

 

[DHK]

DHK you said david believed in OSAS. what is OSAS?

Once saved always saved.

 

[charles_creech78]

Once saved always saved.

I believe in once saved always saved to. I do not believe you can backslide from God our sin a sin unto death because you have Jesus dwelling with in you and Jesus cannot sin. He is the one who leads you.He will not lead you into sin. I gave you scripture on it to it was not my word.Go look and read it again. To me it looks like you where saying you can sin being born again. I believe we can sin in the flesh but not in the spirit. I want to get to the point of this not fight. If you want to fight with me than you have won . I do not fight, I believe we all have are point to give. You say you want scripture on this I will give it to you. First of all we need to love God. 1John chapter 5 vers. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his COMMANDMENTS. 1 John chapter 4 vers 12-13 No man hath seen God at anytime. If we love one another, God DWELLETH IN US, and his love is PERFECTED IN US. Hereby know we that we dwell in HIM and HE IN US, because he hath given us of his spirit. 1john chapter 3 vers 3-10 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as ge is pure. 4 Whosoever COMMITTETH SIN transgresseth also the LAW: for SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW. 5 And ye know thay he was manifested to take away OUR SINS; AND IN HIM IS NO SIN. 6 Whosoever abideth in HIM SINNETH NOT: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, NEITHER KNOWN HIM. 7 LITTLE children let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth SIN IS OF THE DEVIL: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this PURPOSE THE SON OF GOD WAS MANIFESTED,THAT HE MIGHT DESTROY THE WORK OF THE DEVIL. Ok I asked a ? Can a man sin a sin unto death being born again. The answer is . 9 Whosoever is BORN of GOD doth not commit SIN; for his seed remaneth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is BORN OF GOD.

 

[DHK]

Charles
You have a misunderstanding of the Scriptures you quoted.
Answer this:
John, writing to believers, and including himself (using the pronoun "we") writes:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If Jesus Christ living in us, doesn't sin, then why do we on a daily basis have to go to the Lord and confess the sins that we commit? Why do we have to come to Christ to ask for forgiveness of sin, if after we are saved, we have no sin to confess. If your theology is correct--a true Christian doesn't sin--then this verse shouldn't be in the Bible. John includes himself here. If WE

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The same questions above may be asked here. Why does John include this verse if we have no sins. He writes if any man sin Obviously we do sin, otherwise he would not have written that verse. It is written to believers as is the entire epistle. Christians sin. They have a choice. They are not automatons controlled by the Holy Spirit or Christ. You have a choice to sin, and often give into it. Paul described the struggle he had with sin in Romans chapter 7. He said that sin dwells in him.

 

[Brother Bob]

But you fail to recognize that there is a sin and there is a sin unto death!!! There are sins that the scripture says will not enter the Kingdom of God, and there is a sin that is not unto death. That is the Holy Scripture.