PreachTony
Active Member
Icon, thanks for a scriptural reply. I know we don't always agree (in fact, it's probably rare that we agree) but at least my experience with you is that, when called upon, you will use scripture to back up your points.
My point of contention, if it must be called that, with the scripture you used, is that it begins with the caveat that "they knew God." Not that "they knew about God." From what I've understood about Calvinism, based upon the discussions with the Cals here, no one truly "knows God" until God reveals Himself in them and regenerates them, and at that point they are seemingly sealed unto God. Or is this a case, as Calvin himself wrote, of "those whom he illumines only for a time...then he justly forsakes them?"
It is absolutely within God's purview to do what He will with His creation. That said, as we've discussed before, the creation of such a great multitude, doomed from the very start to damnation, does not seem to match the character of God revealed in Jesus Christ, hence my biggest falling out with this particular portion of the theology.
Yes Adam sinned and it brought about death, but in the Cal ideology of God as the director of all things, and man has extremely lacking in free will, or having no free will at all, then how did Adam fall into that sin, other than the director intentioned it to happen? If Adam was indeed without free will to choose whether or not to sin, then why was he commanded not to eat of the Tree? If he lacked the will to choose, then the commandment becomes unnecessary, as he cannot control his actions.
To the OP - Evan, my apologies for basically breaking your established rules in the OP, yet it seemed overkill to me to start a new thread simply to reply to Brother Icon's response.
That is what scripture declares in romans 1;
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
My point of contention, if it must be called that, with the scripture you used, is that it begins with the caveat that "they knew God." Not that "they knew about God." From what I've understood about Calvinism, based upon the discussions with the Cals here, no one truly "knows God" until God reveals Himself in them and regenerates them, and at that point they are seemingly sealed unto God. Or is this a case, as Calvin himself wrote, of "those whom he illumines only for a time...then he justly forsakes them?"
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
If that were true[I do not agree]....would that be okay with you?
Adam sinned and brought about death....do not blame God.
It is absolutely within God's purview to do what He will with His creation. That said, as we've discussed before, the creation of such a great multitude, doomed from the very start to damnation, does not seem to match the character of God revealed in Jesus Christ, hence my biggest falling out with this particular portion of the theology.
Yes Adam sinned and it brought about death, but in the Cal ideology of God as the director of all things, and man has extremely lacking in free will, or having no free will at all, then how did Adam fall into that sin, other than the director intentioned it to happen? If Adam was indeed without free will to choose whether or not to sin, then why was he commanded not to eat of the Tree? If he lacked the will to choose, then the commandment becomes unnecessary, as he cannot control his actions.
To the OP - Evan, my apologies for basically breaking your established rules in the OP, yet it seemed overkill to me to start a new thread simply to reply to Brother Icon's response.