Can a non-Elect person be saved?---Calvinist debate only

[PreachTony]

Icon, thanks for a scriptural reply. I know we don't always agree (in fact, it's probably rare that we agree) but at least my experience with you is that, when called upon, you will use scripture to back up your points.

That is what scripture declares in romans 1;

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

My point of contention, if it must be called that, with the scripture you used, is that it begins with the caveat that "they knew God." Not that "they knew about God." From what I've understood about Calvinism, based upon the discussions with the Cals here, no one truly "knows God" until God reveals Himself in them and regenerates them, and at that point they are seemingly sealed unto God. Or is this a case, as Calvin himself wrote, of "those whom he illumines only for a time...then he justly forsakes them?"

15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?


If that were true[I do not agree]....would that be okay with you?

Adam sinned and brought about death....do not blame God.

It is absolutely within God's purview to do what He will with His creation. That said, as we've discussed before, the creation of such a great multitude, doomed from the very start to damnation, does not seem to match the character of God revealed in Jesus Christ, hence my biggest falling out with this particular portion of the theology.

Yes Adam sinned and it brought about death, but in the Cal ideology of God as the director of all things, and man has extremely lacking in free will, or having no free will at all, then how did Adam fall into that sin, other than the director intentioned it to happen? If Adam was indeed without free will to choose whether or not to sin, then why was he commanded not to eat of the Tree? If he lacked the will to choose, then the commandment becomes unnecessary, as he cannot control his actions.



To the OP - Evan, my apologies for basically breaking your established rules in the OP, yet it seemed overkill to me to start a new thread simply to reply to Brother Icon's response.

 

[plain_n_simple]

We do not hold to fatalism, as Muslims have Allah doing, and we do not hold to Double Predestination, as the Lord actively saves Hos own out from sinful Humanity, but lives the rest to stay in their sins, as they are choosing to do!

According to predestination, there is a group of people that will be saved whether or not they choose to stay in their sins. It is not their choice remember?

The other group is damned whether or not they choose to follow God, or stay in sin. It is not their choice, but God's.

The Calvin evangelists are sent to sinners yes, but only chosen sinners.
God does not send His worker to sinners that have not been chosen. He may use them for the benefit of saving an elect sinner to be saved, but they themselves are damned because they were chosen to be damned.

 

[Yeshua1]

According to predestination, there is a group of people that will be saved whether or not they choose to stay in their sins. It is not their choice remember?

The other group is damned whether or not they choose to follow God, or stay in sin. It is not their choice, but God's.

The Calvin evangelists are sent to sinners yes, but only chosen sinners.
God does not send His worker to sinners that have not been chosen. He may use them for the benefit of saving an elect sinner to be saved, but they themselves are damned because they were chosen to be damned.

Those who are not saved are the ones who keep on willfully rejecting Jesus and salvation though!

That is the natural condition of the lost....

 

[plain_n_simple]

Those who are not saved are the ones who keep on willfully rejecting Jesus and salvation though!

Those who are not saved?

Remember you are dealing with two groups of people.

Those who are not saved but will be ( the pre-chosen)

Those who are not saved and never will be.( the pre-damned)

The pre-chosen who are not yet saved can reject Jesus all they want, they will eventually be saved, so their words cannot mean anything.

The pre-damned can reject Jesus all they want, they are damned anyway.

It does not matter if a person rejects or accepts Christ, we are all either pre-chosen for heaven, or pre-damned for hell.

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

My point of contention, if it must be called that, with the scripture you used, is that it begins with the caveat that "they knew God." Not that "they knew about God

."

I understand rom1 to be speaking of men between Adam and the flood.God still spoke directly and audibly but they turned from Him.

 

[Yeshua1]

Those who are not saved?

Remember you are dealing with two groups of people.

Those who are not saved but will be ( the pre-chosen)

Those who are not saved and never will be.( the pre-damned)

The pre-chosen who are not yet saved can reject Jesus all they want, they will eventually be saved, so their words cannot mean anything.

The pre-damned can reject Jesus all they want, they are damned anyway.

It does not matter if a person rejects or accepts Christ, we are all either pre-chosen for heaven, or pre-damned for hell.

We were all once part of the damned group, as ALL deserve hell, none seek after God, but the Lord in His mercies chose to save such as you and I!

 

[plain_n_simple]

We were all once part of the damned group, as ALL deserve hell, none seek after God, but the Lord in His mercies chose to save such as you and I!

The elect cannot be a part of a damned group. If they ever were part of the truly damned, then they are not the elect.

 

[savedbymercy]

yesh

We were all once part of the damned group, as ALL deserve hell, none seek after God, but the Lord in His mercies chose to save such as you and I!

Not the Elect, those Christ died for, they never have been damned ! In fact, even while they were enemies, unbelievers, they were still reconciled to God Rom 5:10, so how could they have been damned ? Being reconciled means they were received into God's Favor !

 

[savedbymercy]

The elect cannot be a part of a damned group. If they ever were part of the truly damned, then they are not the elect.

Now thats a True statement !

 

[PreachTony]

The elect cannot be a part of a damned group. If they ever were part of the truly damned, then they are not the elect.

If the elect were never damned in the first place, then why did Christ have to die? Obviously, they required some form of atonement for their sin, meaning if the atonement never came, they would have to be punished in some form.

Christ came because God so loved the world. He died to establish the new covenant and open a way for man to go to God, so that whosoever will can repent and be saved. If the elect were never damned, then the sacrifice seems unnecessary.

 

[plain_n_simple]

If the elect were never damned in the first place, then why did Christ have to die? Obviously, they required some form of atonement for their sin, meaning if the atonement never came, they would have to be punished in some form.

Christ came because God so loved the world. He died to establish the new covenant and open a way for man to go to God, so that whosoever will can repent and be saved. If the elect were never damned, then the sacrifice seems unnecessary.

Exactly, and I agree, but I have my Calvin hat on for this thread. The question isn't the validity of pre-chosen.


The OP is "Can the pre-damned be saved?" and is addressed to Calvinists only.

So presuming that predestination is true, the other half of the sentence is "Can the pre-chosen be damned?"

The answer is God has chosen some that He will save, and some He will not bother with because He has already determined them to be damned.

If a pre-damned person were to get saved, it is what they call a false salvation.

If a minister preaches the gospel to the pre-damned unawares, it's okay because they are still damned.

 

[savedbymercy]

pt

If the elect were never damned in the first place, then why did Christ have to die?

So they could never be damned ! In fact, that is why He died, He was cursed / damned in their stead and place. He was made a curse for them Gal 3:13

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

The damnation and curse the Elect deserved, Christ took upon Himself, So it would be injustice on God's part to damn them whom He damned Christ in their behalf !

 

[plain_n_simple]

In pre-chosen/pre-damned, Jesus and the Father had to of had the conversation and understanding that the Son would go to earth to save only the ones the Father had chosen. The rest would be burned.

The chosen were the children of Israel. The Gentiles were damned. The Jews rejected Jesus and the results were not pretty. Jerusalem was destroyed, the Jews were scattered and later 6 Mil died. But they are pre-chosen so it really doesn't matter if they rejected Jesus, according to Calvin that is.

So God chose the Gentiles that were previously pre-damned, but are now pre-chosen.
I know I know....God is not the author of confusion.

Now that the Gospel is preached to the world, this creates two new subgroups within the Gentiles, the pre-chosen, and the pre-damned.

For now I'll presume that no Jewish person can be saved because they are no longer the chosen people.

So now we have a group of pre-chosen Gentiles that used to be pre-damned, a group of Jews that used to be pre-chosen, but are now damned, and a pre-damned group of Gentiles that are still damned.