Can a person be saved apart from access to the Bible or a Church or Religion?

[Mark_13]

If this is your proof text for the Holy Spirit's saving work independently of the gospel, it would be strongly bolstered by instances in the scriptures where this actually happened.

It wasn't a proof text of anything. It occurred to me literally at the moment of reading your question, and seemed appropriate somehow. I won't lose any sleep if you're not convinced.

See my post #16.

SO, you are affirming then that prior to 33 A.D. every person on the planet aside from a certain number of Jews and gentile converts to Judaism all went to Hell? I don't believe you did answer that.

 

[Tom Butler]

Dang it! I was soooo close!! :smilewinkgrin:

I forgot to ask, what was that one sin you committed that messed things up?

Must have been a long time ago.

 

[Tom Butler]

It wasn't a proof text of anything. It occurred to me literally at the moment of reading your question, and seemed appropriate somehow. I won't lose any sleep if you're not convinced.

That's okay. I just couldn't figure out how the verse applied to your argument. I agree that the Holy Spirit is sovereign, and can regenerate anybody he wants independently of the gospel. The question, of course, is does he, given clear scripture connecting salvation to the hearing of the gospel? My answer to my question is No.

SO, you are affirming then that prior to 33 A.D. every person on the planet aside from a certain number of Jews and gentile converts to Judaism all went to Hell? I don't believe you did answer that.

Yes, I am affirming that. i don't think we have any wiggle room about that.

 

[Mark_13]

"SO, you are affirming then that prior to 33 A.D. every person on the planet aside from a certain number of Jews and gentile converts to Judaism all went to Hell? I don't believe you did answer that."

I'm not even 100% sure where I stand here.

When Noah and his family were saved, the rest of the world all perished. Is that a picture of eternal salvation as well? Don't know.

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(And BTW what did all those animals do to get saved - were they chosen, or did they choose.)

 

[Tom Butler]

I suppose we could ask the thief who hung next to Christ?

Of course, he was hanging next to the Living Word, the personification of the gospel.

 

[Forest]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:
as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16-17

Yes. Eternal salvation for God's elect is by his grace and nothing that we do in this life will cause us to be eternally saved.

 

[Forest]

Why, of course they can.

All are given the understanding that there is a God that they are accountable to...


(many others of course)

All men and women know that there is a God.


In addition, God gives potentially saving "light" to every person who is born into the world...



Glory to God

Then how do you explain the athiest?

 

[MB]

Let me throw in a couple of questions to stir the pot.

We all agree that the heavens declare the glory of God. But what do they declare about Jesus?

The gospels declare the glory of God, and of His Son, Jesus. But what if you've never heard the gospel?

We all agree that Jesus is the Light of the world. But how does that potentially saving light become a real saving light to those who don't know about the Light?
How does that work?

If people can be saved independently of the gospel, what's the point of sending missionaries? (I know, we're commanded to do it by Jesus himself. But why, if people don't need the gospel to be saved?).

If, as Paul says, people are saved through the foolishness of preaching; if the gospel is the "power of God to salvation," how can we conclude that God will by some other way save people who've never heard the gospel.

Are there two ways to be saved? One for those who hear the gospel and another for those who don't.

If one takes the view that all have heard of Jesus, or all have heard the gospel, please explain how that happened without a preacher?

With out knowing the gospel of Jesus Christ you cannot be saved. How ever you can be drawn to hear the gospel. I believe all men are drawn.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Although because of freewill men do not always come when drawn and they go worship some false god. All men know just enough to respond to the draw from nature.
MB

 

[Forest]

Let me throw in a couple of questions to stir the pot.

We all agree that the heavens declare the glory of God. But what do they declare about Jesus?

The gospels declare the glory of God, and of His Son, Jesus. But what if you've never heard the gospel?

We all agree that Jesus is the Light of the world. But how does that potentially saving light become a real saving light to those who don't know about the Light?
How does that work?

If people can be saved independently of the gospel, what's the point of sending missionaries? (I know, we're commanded to do it by Jesus himself. But why, if people don't need the gospel to be saved?).

If, as Paul says, people are saved through the foolishness of preaching; if the gospel is the "power of God to salvation," how can we conclude that God will by some other way save people who've never heard the gospel.

Are there two ways to be saved? One for those who hear the gospel and another for those who don't.

If one takes the view that all have heard of Jesus, or all have heard the gospel, please explain how that happened without a preacher?

Salvation is a deliverance and most of the salvtion scriptures are refering to timely salvatins. There is a delicverance for us by understanding the preached gospel but is is not eternal salvation.

 

[Forest]

Actually, there are two other ways to be saved besides repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.

One, you must live a perfect life without sin. Jesus commanded us to do that in Matthew 5:48


Basically, that's keeping the law perfectly.

So, if you can live a sinless life, you're home free.

Two, Romans 2:14ff gives the other way. Live perfectly by your own personal moral code. That's what Paul meant when he talked about the Gentiles being a law unto themselves.

Since the law is written on their hearts, their conscience warns of the existence of a law. So if they can obey perfectly their own moral code, they're home free.

Of course, there are problems. None of us has ever been able to perfectly obey Jesus' command to be perfect. Oh, shoot, I'm in trouble then.

And no on has been able to live up to their own moral code. When their conscience kicks in, it's because they've violated the law written on their hearts. Oops, we all know how that works. Maybe I'm the only one who knew what was right and didn't do right.

Of course, even if we could get to the point where we no longer sin (some folks think they're there), it's too late. We're already sinned before.

So, the conclusion is obvious. Those who have never heard the gospel will not be judged for rejecting Jesus, of whom they have never heard. They will be judged against their own moral code.

And they will have no excuse.

No man besides Christ can walk a sinless life. Our morals, or good works will not save us eternally. The only anybody is saved eternally is by God's grace. John 6:37-41 Christ died for all those that God gave him and he will not lose any of them, no, not one.

 

[MB]

Yes. Eternal salvation for God's elect is by his grace and nothing that we do in this life will cause us to be eternally saved.

Election has never happened to a Gentile. Election doesn't guarantee anything salvific it only sets apart the Jews from the Gentiles.
MB

 

[MB]

No man besides Christ can walk a sinless life. Our morals, or good works will not save us eternally. The only anybody is saved eternally is by God's grace. John 6:37-41 Christ died for all those that God gave him and he will not lose any of them, no, not one.

He lost Judas. Christ admitted this.
MB

 

[Forest]

Because its more efficient and efficacious than someone having to figure it out on their own.

The Gospel is explicit confirmation from an outside source what perhaps the Holy Spirit was already conveying to certain individuals. Its about making it public. There's also a warfare analogy here - going into a foreign culture and helping to dismantle their false religions and the demons they harbor by proclaiming the true gospel for all to hear.
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That last part may be overstating the case - Paul wasn't concerned with overthrowing cultural paganism I guess. He wasn't going around saying, "tear down all your idols". So I don't know.

A preachers responsability is not to save souls eternally, but to feed God's sheep.

 

[Mark_13]

Salvation is a deliverance and most of the salvtion scriptures are refering to timely salvatins. There is a delicverance for us by understanding the preached gospel but is is not eternal salvation.

Oh wow, I had no idea you were saying that. Sorry Annsni.

 

[Mark_13]

A preachers responsability is not to save souls eternally, but to feed God's sheep.

I actually do agree with that however - and that preaching the gospel is in fact ministering to those who are already of the household of faith, or should I say maybe already part of the eternal family of God.

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So if the purpose of spiritual gifts is to minister to fellow members of the eternal Church and family of God, and evangelism is a spiritual gift, then evangelism is reaching out to those who are already destined, already part of, that family of God, Just as when Peter was sent to Cornelius, it says in scripture Cornelius was already a righteous man.

 

[Tom Butler]

No man besides Christ can walk a sinless life. Our morals, or good works will not save us eternally. The only anybody is saved eternally is by God's grace. John 6:37-41 Christ died for all those that God gave him and he will not lose any of them, no, not one.

I agree with this.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Then how do you explain the athiest?

An Atheist is lost wether they hear the gosple, or not.

You cant be an athiest and have faith in Christ.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I agree with what Alive in Christ and Mark 13 have said on this issue, so I won't add anything presently.

Good discussion.

 

[mandym]

To hold that there is any other way than belief in the Messiah (John 14:6) which gets delivered only through the word of God (Romans 10:17) goes far beyond theological leftism. It is pure liberalism, another gospel ( 2 cor 11:4; Gal 1:6) and heretical (2 John 1:10).

 

[annsni]

Oh wow, I had no idea you were saying that. Sorry Annsni.

LOL - No worries. I figured you didn't get what he was saying.