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Can a person be saved who doesn't believe in eternal security?
- Thread starter sanderson1769
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I was a Catholic for 20 years. When I got saved I invited Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour. The person that led me to the Lord did so by using verses out of the "Good News For Modern Man."
I knew nothing of the KJVO issue.
I knew nothing of the OSAS issue.
I didn't even know what eternal security meant.
I didn't understand concepts such as: atonement, justification, etc.
I had never used a Bible before. I had some trouble finding John 3:16.
I was completely Biblically illiterate.
I knew that Christ was God; I understood the trinity; and now that someone had explained it to me for the first time in my life, I understood what it meant to be saved. That was the extent of my Biblical knowledge outside of some of the other basic truths (like the virgin birth) that I would have learned in the Catholic Church.
Yet that day I became saved.
Of course one can be saved and not believe in OSAS. If he remains in that state, he may remain confused about the doctrine of salvation, but he will still be saved.
DHK
I knew nothing of the KJVO issue.
I knew nothing of the OSAS issue.
I didn't even know what eternal security meant.
I didn't understand concepts such as: atonement, justification, etc.
I had never used a Bible before. I had some trouble finding John 3:16.
I was completely Biblically illiterate.
I knew that Christ was God; I understood the trinity; and now that someone had explained it to me for the first time in my life, I understood what it meant to be saved. That was the extent of my Biblical knowledge outside of some of the other basic truths (like the virgin birth) that I would have learned in the Catholic Church.
Yet that day I became saved.
Of course one can be saved and not believe in OSAS. If he remains in that state, he may remain confused about the doctrine of salvation, but he will still be saved.
DHK
The Bible says this:
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
6:1 & 2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
and so Im assuming that all of you who think you are eternally saved no matter what... also believe you are to be "dead to sin" and have stopped willfully sinning? Or do you think some day God is going to miraculously just force you to stop doing what you know to be sin?
Or do you think the only thing that is sin, is not believing that you have eternal security?
Either way you do this thing, it just doesnt make any sense.
To me, if you believe in eternal security you would have to just disregard these two admonitions below, the story of the talents and the story of the sheep and goats and so many others.
Either that or you think they dont apply anymore?
Or you think that ...gee I dont know what you all think, it just does not make any sense at all to me.
Its like you just take one verse or two and bank on that and then disregard the rest instead of studying them all together as a whole.
Matthew 25:
3: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14: For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15: And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16: Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17: And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18: But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19: After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20: And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21: His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22: He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23: His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24: Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28: Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I thought that way when I first became a Christian, but then I started reading Revelation and things like this and couldnt make myself believe that anymore:
Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
So you all think that everyone who believes in eternal security also will somehow miraculously some day end up keeping the commandments as well?
All anyone ever says is something like "well if they dont then they really werent saved to begin with".
Claudia
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
6:1 & 2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
and so Im assuming that all of you who think you are eternally saved no matter what... also believe you are to be "dead to sin" and have stopped willfully sinning? Or do you think some day God is going to miraculously just force you to stop doing what you know to be sin?
Or do you think the only thing that is sin, is not believing that you have eternal security?
Either way you do this thing, it just doesnt make any sense.
To me, if you believe in eternal security you would have to just disregard these two admonitions below, the story of the talents and the story of the sheep and goats and so many others.
Either that or you think they dont apply anymore?
Or you think that ...gee I dont know what you all think, it just does not make any sense at all to me.
Its like you just take one verse or two and bank on that and then disregard the rest instead of studying them all together as a whole.
Matthew 25:
3: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14: For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15: And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16: Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17: And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18: But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19: After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20: And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21: His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22: He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23: His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24: Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28: Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
I thought that way when I first became a Christian, but then I started reading Revelation and things like this and couldnt make myself believe that anymore:
Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
So you all think that everyone who believes in eternal security also will somehow miraculously some day end up keeping the commandments as well?
All anyone ever says is something like "well if they dont then they really werent saved to begin with".
Claudia
You see, I fully believe this:
2Tm:1:12: For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
But then again I fully believe this:
Rom:3:4: God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar
I believe God is able to do ANYTHING... but NOT if I decide I dont want to cooperate with Him.
Claudia
2Tm:1:12: For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
But then again I fully believe this:
Rom:3:4: God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar
I believe God is able to do ANYTHING... but NOT if I decide I dont want to cooperate with Him.
Claudia
what does women working have to do with any of this subject?
although I dont see how a woman can do things like make clothes and sell them, and that not be called "work".
Proverbs 31:
13: She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14: She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15: She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16: She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17: She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18: She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19: She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20: She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21: She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22: She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23: Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24: She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25: Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
sanderson1769
New Member
If you don't want to hijack the thread then why are you doing it?
OK back on topic.
DHK has an excellent post (I agree with him for once - yeah!!), and this probably reflects most of our experiences. I accepted Christ at a young age. At that time, I knew nothing about eternal security, perserverance of the saints, OSAS, etc.
For the life of me, I can't understand how someone thinks this would affect someone's salvation. Does this mean that I wasn't REALLY a Christian until I came to this view. Or, does this mean that those who don't have this view aren't real Christians?? Gimme a break.
DHK has an excellent post (I agree with him for once - yeah!!), and this probably reflects most of our experiences. I accepted Christ at a young age. At that time, I knew nothing about eternal security, perserverance of the saints, OSAS, etc.
For the life of me, I can't understand how someone thinks this would affect someone's salvation. Does this mean that I wasn't REALLY a Christian until I came to this view. Or, does this mean that those who don't have this view aren't real Christians?? Gimme a break.
How could anybody believe that not beliving a certain way could effect someone's salvation if they think that once someone is saved they are staying that way no matter what, anyway? That doesnt make any sense either.
How could not believing a certain way be any different than not behaving a certain way?
That would mean that all you have to do is have some certain magical attitude to start with on "that day" you first believed and then everything else from then on is a sure thing.
..Or I guess maybe they think on one certain day or moment if they can manage to come up with the perfect "belief" then from that moment onward they are saved, no matter what.
That sounds silly just thinking about it
...seriously.
Another question is, why didnt someone just delete the person's message from the start about women working if it had nothing to do with this topic? I just figured I'd quickly answer the question since someone asked it...
Claudia
How could not believing a certain way be any different than not behaving a certain way?
That would mean that all you have to do is have some certain magical attitude to start with on "that day" you first believed and then everything else from then on is a sure thing.
..Or I guess maybe they think on one certain day or moment if they can manage to come up with the perfect "belief" then from that moment onward they are saved, no matter what.
That sounds silly just thinking about it
...seriously.
Another question is, why didnt someone just delete the person's message from the start about women working if it had nothing to do with this topic? I just figured I'd quickly answer the question since someone asked it...
Claudia
Or do you guys think on one certain day you have to "believe" and then this means you are saved forever more no matter what you do in the future, except you also from that day forward have to "believe" that you are eternally saved?
And do you have to "believe" that certain way every moment to be saved? What if one day you "slip" and dont believe that anymore... then the next day you do? LOL!
It would seem to me you are making the way you believe just as much a condition of salvation as someone like me who thinks their are conditions to salvation.
Claudia
And do you have to "believe" that certain way every moment to be saved? What if one day you "slip" and dont believe that anymore... then the next day you do? LOL!
It would seem to me you are making the way you believe just as much a condition of salvation as someone like me who thinks their are conditions to salvation.
Claudia
sanderson1769
New Member
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. - 2 Timothy 2:13
ccrobinson
Active Member
It doesn't have anything to do with the subject. I made a comment about a line in the essay linked in the OP.
What does this verse have to do with believing eternal security as a condition of salvation?
Is that like saying: How is it possible that unless one believes all the doctrine of the SDA they cannot be saved.
Or if you don't believe you must worship on the Sabbath you can't be saved?
Salvation is not by works. It is by grace through faith. That is why one is not required to know and do theology and theological works before salvation.
DHK
Good post DHK. Why do we try to make salvation so difficult??
Sure they can. If salvation requires 100% perfect doctrine without error, then none os us are saved.
I'm not making a case for or against eternal security (I lean towards OSAS myself), I'm simply pointing out that there's plenty of room for disagreement, discussion, and debate on such issues without calling into question our salvation. Besides, doctrine doesn't save. Only Jesus saves.
SuperBaptist
New Member
Yes, a person can believe such a thing and still be saved. He just won't feel very good about going to sleep at night fearing he forgot to confess a sin.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
The plan of salvation in a nutshell:
Romans 10:9 (NEFB = New Enhansed Family Bible):
If you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and
believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the Dead,
AND BELIVE THAT YOU WILL HAVE have ETERNAL SECURITY;
then you shall be saved.
Well, not really
Strangely, I believe one can NOT believe in ETERNAL SECURITY
and have it anyway - Just confess Jesus as Lord which believeing
GOd raised Him from the dead.
Romans 10:9 (NEFB = New Enhansed Family Bible):
If you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and
believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the Dead,
AND BELIVE THAT YOU WILL HAVE have ETERNAL SECURITY;
then you shall be saved.
Well, not really
Strangely, I believe one can NOT believe in ETERNAL SECURITY
and have it anyway - Just confess Jesus as Lord which believeing
GOd raised Him from the dead.
The first post in this thread goes against scripture. John, writing to Christians in I John, tells them that he writes that they might know that they have eternal life. It is obvious that some of his readers might have had it and not been sure. He also spoke of their hearts condemning them but God being greater than their hearts. Clearly one can have some doubts about assurance of salvation and be saved.
On a related issue, the Bible talks about making your calling and election sure....
On a related issue, the Bible talks about making your calling and election sure....
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