can A person get regenerated By God, And NOT Become Saved?

[revmwc]

Refeneration = "2.Spiritual or moral revival or rebirth" i.e The old man that is lost and dead, is regenerated by Faith it is the work of Christ and by faith we are saved.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Regeneration

2 Corinthians 5:
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Regeneration fully described in verse 17. Regeneration and salvation go hand in hand, salvation of the souls, spirit and body for eternity, and regenration to a new nature, a new person in Christ.

 

[savedbymercy]

Christ Resurrection is spoken of as a begetting, He being begotten from the dead.

Rev 1:5

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,




Acts 13:33

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Heb 1:5

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Now, scripture says that we [those chosen in Him Eph 1:4] were raised up together with Him Eph 2:

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Now When Christ was raised up, He entered into His Glory ! Lk 24:26

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And thats also the regeneration spoken of in Matt 19:28

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The regeneration is a noun here and in Titus 3:5, its not a verb !

Those who were Chosen in Christ, follow Him into His Glory, because they were in Him When He rose and entered into His Glory, that is their regeneration also.

 

[Winman]

I debated with one Calvinist over on StrangeBaptistfire, a few years back with one of their "sharpest knives in the drawer" as they called him (and he was pretty good to, I admit), his name was Gene. He believed a person could be regenerate not just for years but possibly even decades before they came to faith. He still held that if regenerate that person will eventually and inevitably come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Well you can guess we disagreed on various aspects of that

However it is my contention that most of the issues regarding C/A are rooted in not what regeneration does, but 'how' it does what it does when it does it.

The problem with Gene's view is that he holds a man can be spiritually alive enabling him to believe later, and yet be spiritually dead in sins, as we are justified by faith. No one's sins can be forgiven until they place their trust in Christ.

You cannot be spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same time, this is a contradiction, yet many Reformed believe a man can be regenerate for years before they trust Christ and have their sins forgiven.

Faith MUST precede regeneration as you cannot have life while you are still dead in sins.

 

[Winman]

I debated with one Calvinist over on StrangeBaptistfire, a few years back with one of their "sharpest knives in the drawer" as they called him (and he was pretty good to, I admit), his name was Gene. He believed a person could be regenerate not just for years but possibly even decades before they came to faith. He still held that if regenerate that person will eventually and inevitably come to a saving knowledge of Christ. Well you can guess we disagreed on various aspects of that

However it is my contention that most of the issues regarding C/A are rooted in not what regeneration does, but 'how' it does what it does when it does it.

The problem with Gene's view is that he holds a man can be spiritually alive enabling him to believe later, and yet be spiritually dead in sins, as we are justified by faith. No one's sins can be forgiven until they place their trust in Christ.

You cannot be spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same time, this is a contradiction, yet many Reformed believe a man can be regenerate for years before they trust Christ and have their sins forgiven.

Faith MUST precede regeneration as you cannot have life while you are still dead in sins.

There are many verses of scripture that say you must believe to have life, there are ZERO verses that support regeneration preceding faith.

 

[savedbymercy]

win:

as we are justified by faith.

Not before being Justified by the Blood Rom 5:

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Faith MUST precede regeneration

Thats Error,for Regeneration is when those Chosen in Christ were raised up together with Him, this occured before they were even born sinners.

Then, the New Birth in time by the Spirit must precede Faith simply because Faith is an Fruit of the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The word Faith here is the same greek word as in Eph 2:8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

win:



Not before being Justified by the Blood Rom 5:

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.



Thats Error,for Regeneration is when those Chosen in Christ were raised up together with Him, this occured before they were even born sinners.

Then, the New Birth in time by the Spirit must precede Faith simply because Faith is an Fruit of the Holy Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The word Faith here is the same greek word as in Eph 2:8

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Your view is refuted by Paul several times in the NT. No one receives the Holy Spirit until AFTER they believe.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or BY the hearing of faith?

You must hear God's word and believe it to receive the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.

Again, Paul shows a person first hears the word of God (the gospel) , then believes, and then after believeing receives the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:2a He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed?

Again, Paul shows a person receives the Holy Spirit AFTER they believe.

So, there is NO WAY a person can be regenerate, having spiritual life until AFTER they believe.

There are many other verses besides these that show this.

 

[savedbymercy]

win:

Your view is refuted by Paul several times in the NT. No one receives the Holy Spirit until AFTER they believe.

Thats impossible, for Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22


22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

You must hear God's word and believe it to receive the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, AFTER that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.

It is nowhere stated in this passage you must hear God's word and believe it to receive the Holy Spirit, you just made that up..

Now, paul says they heard the word of truth and after that they Trusted or believed. Now, how could they had heard spiritual truth without already being born of God ?

Jesus plainly says one cannot hear Gods word unless they are of God Jn 8:

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

And if thats not enough He states also vs


47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

This tears your reasoning to shreds..

The Holy Spirit seals the person with the Truth after they hear it and trust in Christ, but they were already born of God to even hear God's word, unless you don't believe God's word is the same as the Gospel of God or of Salvation..

 

[DHK]

win:

Thats impossible, for Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

This actually defeats your own view. God does not give faith to either the unregenerate or the unsaved; neither one. There is not a shred of evidence that God gives faith to the unsaved. I have never had a Calvinist back this up with Scripture yet.

 

[Winman]

win:



Thats impossible, for Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22


22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,



It is nowhere stated in this passage you must hear God's word and believe it to receive the Holy Spirit, you just made that up..

Now, paul says they heard the word of truth and after that they Trusted or believed. Now, how could they had heard spiritual truth without already being born of God ?

Jesus plainly says one cannot hear Gods word unless they are of God Jn 8:

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

And if thats not enough He states also vs


47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

This tears your reasoning to shreds..

The Holy Spirit seals the person with the Truth after they hear it and trust in Christ, but they were already born of God to even hear God's word, unless you don't believe God's word is the same as the Gospel of God or of Salvation..

Nope. You have to hear God's word and believe it to be born again.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.

Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

We are born again BY the word of God. God only gives the power to BECOME a son of God to those who believe.

So, you MUST hear the word of God and believe it to be born again.

 

[savedbymercy]

win:

Nope. You have to hear God's word and believe it to be born again.

You know you just contradicted Christ dont you ? Jn 8:

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[DHK]

win:



You know you just contradicted Christ dont you ? Jn 8:

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

You are taking Scripture out of context. Find the context. Who was Christ speaking to, and why was he saying what he was saying?

If what you are saying is true, either one of two scenarios must be true:
1. All the world is regenerated but very few saved, or,
2. It is impossible for anyone to be saved for no one can hear the Word.

Which one do you believe?

 

[percho]

Christ Resurrection is spoken of as a begetting, He being begotten from the dead.

Rev 1:5

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,




Acts 13:33

33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Heb 1:5

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Now, scripture says that we [those chosen in Him Eph 1:4] were raised up together with Him Eph 2:

5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Now When Christ was raised up, He entered into His Glory ! Lk 24:26

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And thats also the regeneration spoken of in Matt 19:28

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The regeneration is a noun here and in Titus 3:5, its not a verb !

Those who were Chosen in Christ, follow Him into His Glory, because they were in Him When He rose and entered into His Glory, that is their regeneration also.

I disagree. Those are sealed with the Spirit of promise which is the earnest of our inheritance until. Assurance of an inheritance. This makes us an heir not an inheritor.

Romans 8:17,18 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Colossians 3:4 When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

You got off to a very good start with this, "Christ Resurrection is spoken of as a begetting, He being begotten from the dead." Or as it says in Col. 1:18 firstborn from the dead. The resurrection of Christ is spoken of as a birth.

That being said let's look closer at this verse you also posted.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

How were we washed from our sins in his blood? What had taken place that caused us to be washed? by being, the first begotten of the dead
according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration

Because Jesus the Christ was raised from the dead our sins are washed away in his blood and we shall be saved by his resurrected life.

Romans 5:9,10 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Therefore the answer to the OP is No.

 

[revmwc]

win:



Thats impossible, for Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22


22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,



It is nowhere stated in this passage you must hear God's word and believe it to receive the Holy Spirit, you just made that up..

Now, paul says they heard the word of truth and after that they Trusted or believed. Now, how could they had heard spiritual truth without already being born of God ?

Jesus plainly says one cannot hear Gods word unless they are of God Jn 8:

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

And if thats not enough He states also vs


47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

This tears your reasoning to shreds..

The Holy Spirit seals the person with the Truth after they hear it and trust in Christ, but they were already born of God to even hear God's word, unless you don't believe God's word is the same as the Gospel of God or of Salvation..

So you only see one kind of fatih? Faith for salvation, but wait let's look at this.

Saving faith, the best example I have ever heard of for saving faith is this.

Suppose you were at the Grand Canyon and a fellow lands a helicopter drives a stake in the ground and ties a rope to that stake. Then he flies to the other side and drives another stake in ties the rope tightly. Goes to hellicopter gets a wheelbarrow out and climbs on the rope and pusehes it across. He then looks at you and says do you believe I can push this wheelbarrow across the rope. You would have to say yes I just saw you do it. He then says get in and let me push you across. Right then you must place your life in his hands and have FAITH he can keep your life safe. That is the type of faith you need for salvation. Trusting in Christ to get to eternity with the Farther. Do you believe (have faith) that He can?

Then there is Faith in time or a life of resting in faith. That means knowing the promises of God and believing (faith) that He will accomplish that promise.
Phillipians 4:19 "For my God shall supply all of your (my) needs according to His riches in glory.
It takes faith to rest in that promise.

Luke 8:24And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.

25And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

26And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.

The disciples were with Jesus and God was not going to let anything happen to Him. He was sleeping in a time of trouble, but they lacked faith, was this saving faith or faith in time? He commanded the sea to be still and it did, He had faith in time.

1 Peter 5: 6Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

7Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Humble yourselves get rid of your fears lgive your cares your fears to God and He will care for you. That again requires faith in time.

Your Galatians 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

that faith is the faith in time not saving faith.
Acts 6: 7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Stephen was full of faith in time, trusting gods in the situation knowing that even if he were killed God would save his soul. But stephen had already trusted Christ placed saving faith in Him before he ever got to this point.

Romans 3:21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Verse 22 shows us saving faith that is for all those that believe. Faith for salvation.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

We are justified by Faith, this is saving faith.

Romans 4:
4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


Verse 5 those that believe on Christ that faith, saving faith is counted unto hin for righteousness.

So when dealing with faith you must determine the type of faith. Saving faith or faith in time where we rest on the promises of God in time for our lives.

 

[revmwc]

regeneration from the greek "paligge" re-creation or as it is found only twice in scripture as regeneration. Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5. We become re-created by faith. We were dead in sin and our human spirit came alive and was regenerated or re-created because of faith.


So by the Greek terminology no one cannot be regenerated without being saved.

 

[percho]

regeneration from the greek "paligge" re-creation or as it is found only twice in scripture as regeneration. Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5. We become re-created by faith. We were dead in sin and our human spirit came alive and was regenerated or re-created because of faith.


So by the Greek terminology no one cannot be regenerated without being saved.

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

rev? From the above, if Christ had not been raised from the dead, that is been made alive again, could this have taken place? and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

From what is stated in 1 Cor. 15:16-18 could we be washed in his blood if he had not been raised from the dead?

by the washing of regeneration,

Does this not say the regeneration allows the washing to be effective.

In reality the total verse 5 of Rev. 1 says the same thing.

And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
According to 1 Cor. because of that in bold that underlined could be done.

Begotten of the dead is a regenerative phrase is it not? Col. 18 firstborn from the dead. πρωτότοκος Same in both places.

 

[revmwc]

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

rev? From the above, if Christ had not been raised from the dead, that is been made alive again, could this have taken place? and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

From what is stated in 1 Cor. 15:16-18 could we be washed in his blood if he had not been raised from the dead?

by the washing of regeneration,

Does this not say the regeneration allows the washing to be effective.

In reality the total verse 5 of Rev. 1 says the same thing.

And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
According to 1 Cor. because of that in bold that underlined could be done.

Begotten of the dead is a regenerative phrase is it not? Col. 18 firstborn from the dead. πρωτότοκος Same in both places.

" if Christ be not raised, your faith vain" Paul says if Christ be not raised, Jesus is raised so our faith is not in vain. Christ said He would be raised. If he had not been raised then He would have been proven a liar, a false teacher, that is what Paul is saying. You and I and every believer are begotten from the dead, we were Spiritually dead and have been regenerated, re-born into spiritual life because of our faith. His blood paid for our sins but not ours only but the sins of the everyman. The blood shed did not just cover but paid in full the price for mans sins.

 

[percho]

" if Christ be not raised, your faith vain" Paul says if Christ be not raised, Jesus is raised so our faith is not in vain. Christ said He would be raised. If he had not been raised then He would have been proven a liar, a false teacher, that is what Paul is saying. You and I and every believer are begotten from the dead, we were Spiritually dead and have been regenerated, re-born into spiritual life because of our faith. His blood paid for our sins but not ours only but the sins of the everyman. The blood shed did not just cover but paid in full the price for mans sins.

First let me say, I believe Christ died for my sin. Notice I said Christ died not just the body of Christ. By the same token I also believe that Christ was raised from the dead. Once again Christ not just the body of Christ. That is what the word of God says.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

The total Christ, God returned his Spirit, raised his soul from Hades and raised his body uncorrupted never to return to corruption. God raised him from the dead and in raising him from the dead said this, "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." This is the day he became, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

I believe Jesus was raised from the dead. That however does not negate that Paul said that IF the dead are not raised neither is Christ raised and we whether alive of dead are without hope. IF he isn't risen his blood would not have washed anyone from their sins. His death would have been for naught, zero.

Christ at this time is not only the firstborn from the dead he is the only one born from the dead. Because of his regeneration we are washed in his blood.

Tell me by the word of God that these do not say the same thing.

This

The baptism of Jesus.
He went down into the water and John suffered him. Death. the shed blood of the Lamb.
He came up out of the water. Resurrected to life, regeneration.
The heavens opened and the Spirit in the form of a dove lit on him. having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit

And this.

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit;