Can a style of music be considered wordly?

[Jordan Kurecki]

Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Co 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

1Jn_2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

We these verses in mind: we are to not be conformed to, which means to be fashioned according to, and we are to be separate from the things of this world, and we are not to love the things of this world.

My question is how do these verses apply to music? Do you think it is possible that some popular Christian music and artists have been conformed to the world or are not separating completely?

Do you think a musical style is worldly in the sight of God?

Why or why not?

Please do not get offensive or bitter at me, I am not a judge of others who have different music standards than I, and as Baptists we all hold to individual soul liberty and we are ultimately all responsible to God, I am a young Preacher trying to develope music standards that are pleasing to the Lord.

What are you're thoughts?

P.S. please stick to topic of the style itself being wordly, I am not talking about drums or guitars being evil, because I do not believe that at all.

again, please stick to this specific argument, I have no interest in attacks on the character of musical artists or anything, as I find the wordliness to be the biggest obsticle to my embracing of CCM and other Contemporary music styles.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

My question is how do these verses apply to music?

They don't. All these verses speak to the believers' states of mind, not the measure of those events in our lives. For example, "conformed" in Romans 12:2 is the Greek suschematizo, which is to model one's character or mind after the pattern of another. It speaks to an attitude toward things and practices, not the things and practices themselves. This attitude could mean that things typically thought of as "holy" or "godly" such as prayer or evangelism could be "worldly" because of the practitioner's attitude towards the why and how of doing them. It also means that music, recreation, or other practices that are typically thought of as "worldly" can be done to the glory of God. It depends on our attitude when doing or participating in such activities or practices.

Do you think it is possible that some popular Christian music and artists have been conformed to the world or are not separating completely?

Anything's possible. Do I think any have? Yes. Do I think it is a wide-spread problem? No.

Do you think a musical style is worldly in the sight of God?

Again, if the attitude of the person performing in a musical style is worldly rather than godly, yes. If not, any music can be used to His glory.

 

[annsni]

Honestly, I don't see how any style of music could be considered "worldly" any more than a style of food could be considered worldly.

I do understand your questions though Jordan. I know you came from a background where anything even remotely "rock" would be considered worldly and you are now beginning to seek the truth of the issue on your own. I would honestly just seek God and ask what is HIS will for you regarding music. It may be that you won't listen to what you once considered worldly but then again, you may find yourself some new music that is limited but spiritually excellent. I wish you the best in your endeavors!

 

[nodak]

Yes, music styles can definitely communicate cultural baggage (hence worldliness) that we don't want to communicate. Just think of the dum de dum dum du of the old dragnet show. Or the vava vava voom riff for strippers.
Or any piece of music used repeatedly in a specific way. Bet you can't, if you are old enough, hear just the music from "two all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese pickles onions on a sesame seed bun" and not think of McD's.

Rather than ask if a specific musical style is evil or not, I believe a better question is "what does it communicate and to whom does it communicate that?"

Like it or not, some forms of country and western are associated with the honky tonky bar scene. There is plenty of country gospel without that sound to choose from. Why make your church a place where the music makes people think of bars?

Like it or not, rock has deep cultural baggage of rebellion, drugs, and sex. Around here, especially the rebellion. There is a local church so far into that scene that they actually set up a room outside the sanctuary where those that don't like that music are invited to attend video church. It has cost them most of the older people, most of the young families with children, much of the area teens, and indeed is struggling to keep the doors open and lost at least three pastors. But woe to anyone that suggest maybe they choose a different track. See, they attract the rebellious unchurched folks but don't see them change their lives and begin to serve the Lord or give. Instead they just add Jesus on top of their rockin on lifestyle. Why make your church sound like a rock concert?

Now, while there is a difference between bar music (how it is written) and bar music (drinking songs) and so we get a bit of a myth going re the Wesleys, we need to remember that even if their music had been just different lyrics to drinking songs, their preaching was not at all today's wishy washy "just let Jesus love on you" stuff you often hear today.

I freely admit I do not get what is going on in the larger evangelical world today. We have a God Who regenerates, not just "saves." We have a God Who sanctifies, not just provides really cool fire insurance and retirement benefits. We should be calling people out of all the mire and muck that led them away from Jesus.

Instead we practically run over each other trying to see who can look the most like the world and still attract people to the church house.

Issues of geography have us deciding whether or not to stay at our church or try the new closer startup church. Whatever we finally decide, you can bet we will choose whichever comes closest to being church for grownups, saved folks clothed and in their right minds. (Assuming both equally strong doctrinally.)

We won't be looking to see which church is hipper to the skateboarders, or comes closest to being in the local bar or honkytonk, or has the most baby boomers trying to look 16.

I know a lot of people disagree with that, as is their privilege. Again, just look at what the specific music communicates in your specific culture and make sure it what you want to communicate.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Co 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

1Jn_2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

We these verses in mind: we are to not be conformed to, which means to be fashioned according to, and we are to be separate from the things of this world, and we are not to love the things of this world.

My question is how do these verses apply to music? Do you think it is possible that some popular Christian music and artists have been conformed to the world or are not separating completely?

Do you think a musical style is worldly in the sight of God?

Why or why not?

Please do not get offensive or bitter at me, I am not a judge of others who have different music standards than I, and as Baptists we all hold to individual soul liberty and we are ultimately all responsible to God, I am a young Preacher trying to develope music standards that are pleasing to the Lord.

What are you're thoughts?

P.S. please stick to topic of the style itself being wordly, I am not talking about drums or guitars being evil, because I do not believe that at all.

again, please stick to this specific argument, I have no interest in attacks on the character of musical artists or anything, as I find the wordliness to be the biggest obsticle to my embracing of CCM and other Contemporary music styles.

Good question. But first, you have to define "worldly".

 

[evenifigoalone]

Honestly, I don't see how any style of music could be considered "worldly" any more than a style of food could be considered worldly.

I do understand your questions though Jordan. I know you came from a background where anything even remotely "rock" would be considered worldly and you are now beginning to seek the truth of the issue on your own. I would honestly just seek God and ask what is HIS will for you regarding music. It may be that you won't listen to what you once considered worldly but then again, you may find yourself some new music that is limited but spiritually excellent. I wish you the best in your endeavors!

Ditto here.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Good question. But first, you have to define "worldly".

Romans 12:2
According to Adam Clarke:

And be not conformed to this world - By this world, αιωνι τουτῳ, may be understood that present state of things both among the Jews and Gentiles; the customs and fashions of the people who then lived, the Gentiles particularly, who had neither the power nor the form of godliness; though some think that the Jewish economy, frequently termed עולם הזה olam hazzeh, this world, this peculiar state of things, is alone intended. And the apostle warns them against reviving usages that Christ had abolished: this exhortation still continues in full force. The world that now is - This present state of things, is as much opposed to the spirit of genuine Christianity as the world then was. Pride, luxury, vanity, extravagance in dress, and riotous living, prevail now, as they did then, and are as unworthy of a Christian’s pursuit as they are injurious to his soul, and hateful in the sight of God.

According to Robertson's Word Pictures:
Be not fashioned (mē sunschēmatizesthe). Present passive imperative with mē, stop being fashioned or do not have the habit of being fashioned. Late Greek verb suschēmatizō, to conform to another’s pattern (1Co_7:31; Phi_2:7.). In N.T. only here and 1Pe_1:14.
According to this world (tōi aiōni toutōi). Associative instrumental case. Do not take this age as your fashion plate

According to the Biblical Illustrator:

1. “World” has various meanings.
(1) Time.
(2) An age—the Messianic, e.g., as contrasted with the Jewish, or the past as opposed to the present or coming age.
(3) A state, as the present in distinction from the future in antagonism with the good.
(4) “Worldliness,” a spirit or principle of evil pervading the world. It is this to which we must not be conformed.
2. It is well to define the term in order to avoid two extremes.
(1) That which regards the world as a mere abstraction, something incidental to those early Christian ages, but of which nobody is in danger now.
(2) That exaggeration which confounds it with almost every transaction of our lives.
3. We must be vigilant against this spirit precisely where it is the most subtle and concealed, e.g.
(1) We may say that delight in the visible world is legitimate. “Surely this is not the world against which the apostle warns us.” No; but suppose that nature becomes to us all in all, and cheats us into the belief that there is nothing higher than that which serves our senses.
(2) We say indisputably that we ought to love our fellow-men; but what if with this there blends an influence that moves us to defer to their customs, and live merely upon the level of their ideals!
(3) Even our religion may be worldly in its spirit. The objects of our faith in another state of existence may be sensuous, and the grounds of our obedience to God mercenary.
4. “The world,” then, is a spirit, that is everywhere around us and within, and the injunction is most needed precisely where this spirit is most likely to be confounded with something that is good and true. Proceeding upon this assumption, let us examine the forms and achievements of our modern civilisation.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I'm tend to notice that when discussing this, it seems to be more a philosophical debate, rather actually using scripture.

What scriptures can you point to when dealing with this subject?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I'm tend to notice that when discussing this, it seems to be more a philosophical debate, rather actually using scripture.

What scriptures can you point to when dealing with this subject?

The Scriptures recognize music as a means for praise (Acts 16:25; Romans 15:9), a means of expressing joy (James 5:13), thanksgiving (Psalm 92:1-3), sorrow for sin (Isaiah 16:10), a means of prayer (1 Corinthians 14:15; Psalm 72:20), and a means of teaching and spiritual communication (Colossians 3:16; Ephesians 5:19). Biblical music makers are professional (1 Chronicles 15:22; 25:7; Isaiah 5:11-12; Ezekiel 33:32), as well as nonprofessional (Psalm 100; 1 Kings 1:39-40; 1 Corinthians 14:26; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). There are those who direct music (Psalm 4:1, 5:1, 6:1, etc.; Nehemiah 12:8) and teach music (1 Chronicles 15:22)..

The people of the Bible overflow with music in every circumstance. Nowhere does the Bible describe the style or the "beat" of the music. It simply states that music that gives praise to God is music of which God approves and by which man is uplifted. I know you want a biblical basis for the condemnation of certain kids of music, Jordan, and I understand why you want that. But there isn't one. Sorry. Music that meets the criteria of giving glory and praise to God is music that is acceptable to God, regardless of how it "sounds."

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

The Scriptures recognize music as a means for praise (Acts 16:25; Romans 15:9), a means of expressing joy (James 5:13), thanksgiving (Psalm 92:1-3), sorrow for sin (Isaiah 16:10), a means of prayer (1 Corinthians 14:15; Psalm 72:20), and a means of teaching and spiritual communication (Colossians 3:16; Ephesians 5:19). Biblical music makers are professional (1 Chronicles 15:22; 25:7; Isaiah 5:11-12; Ezekiel 33:32), as well as nonprofessional (Psalm 100; 1 Kings 1:39-40; 1 Corinthians 14:26; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). There are those who direct music (Psalm 4:1, 5:1, 6:1, etc.; Nehemiah 12:8) and teach music (1 Chronicles 15:22)..

The people of the Bible overflow with music in every circumstance. Nowhere does the Bible describe the style or the "beat" of the music. It simply states that music that gives praise to God is music of which God approves and of which man is uplifted. I know you want a biblical basis for the condemnation of certain kids of music, Jordan, and I understand why you want that. But there isn't one. Sorry. Music that meets the criteria of giving glory and praise to God is music that is acceptable to God, regardless of how it "sounds."

No,actually I do not want a biblical basis for condemning music, I have close friends who are pro CCM, Personally I like CCM and some Contemporary Southern Gospel,

But I am fearful of compromising truth and righteousness for pleasure.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

But I am fearful of compromising truth and righteousness for pleasure.

If the music uplifts you, praises and glorifies God, stop worrying. Enjoy the message and add your praise to it.

 

[SynodOfDort]

The one element of the music debate I have always had questions is the effect that certain genres of music can have on your mood. Whilst "Before the Throne of God Above" stirs up feelings of worship and adoration, perhaps the inverse could be said of a song such as "Psalm 51" by Kings Kaleidoscope? Perhaps even one could argue that it is disrespectful to put the divinely-inspired Word of the creator God to a beat that stirs up feelings of angst and confusion? Just saying

 

[JamesL]

The Scriptures recognize music as a means for praise (Acts 16:25; Romans 15:9), a means of expressing joy (James 5:13), thanksgiving (Psalm 92:1-3), sorrow for sin (Isaiah 16:10), a means of prayer (1 Corinthians 14:15; Psalm 72:20), and a means of teaching and spiritual communication (Colossians 3:16; Ephesians 5:19). Biblical music makers are professional (1 Chronicles 15:22; 25:7; Isaiah 5:11-12; Ezekiel 33:32), as well as nonprofessional (Psalm 100; 1 Kings 1:39-40; 1 Corinthians 14:26; Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). There are those who direct music (Psalm 4:1, 5:1, 6:1, etc.; Nehemiah 12:8) and teach music (1 Chronicles 15:22)..

The people of the Bible overflow with music in every circumstance. Nowhere does the Bible describe the style or the "beat" of the music. It simply states that music that gives praise to God is music of which God approves and by which man is uplifted. I know you want a biblical basis for the condemnation of certain kids of music, Jordan, and I understand why you want that. But there isn't one. Sorry. Music that meets the criteria of giving glory and praise to God is music that is acceptable to God, regardless of how it "sounds."

That's good stuff.

To Jordan, I tend to summarize with this:
God cares less about the "thing", and cares more about what you think about the thing. As a previous poster asked, what about worldly food? Doesn't scripture address meat sacrificed to idols? I don't think there could be anything more worldly, but scripture says if it is received with thanksgiving, then eat with a clear conscience.

I took my little son to a Lifeway bookstore the other day, and let him pick out two CDs. He really likes hard rock and some rap/alternative. Considering that we were at a Christian store, I told him he could pick whatever he wants, so he did.

He put one of the CDs in as soon as we got in my truck, and after a couple of songs I was like "Wait a minute." I pulled over and looked at the words to some of the songs and was appalled.

Virtually every song had the same themes - look at me, getting my groove on, goin' out clubbin', gettin' my freak on in the club, girls with clothes half off.... WOW

I had to have a good talk with my son, and explained that he didn't do anything wrong by picking out that music, and it wasn't about the musical style at all. It had everything to do with where those lyrics would take his mind.

I also told him it was a shame that I couldn't take him into a Christian store and simply let him pick whatever.

But the bottom line is that our battle is in the mind. We are to have a mind set in the spirit, and not on the flesh. If certain styles of music set your mind on the flesh, then you should not listen to it. But your battle against the flesh is not the same as everyone else.

It's the weak brother who tries to impose his own restrictions onto others