Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

[Luke2427]

Ok I believe in going to Walmart, I also believe that if I die along the way to driving to Walmart I would not make it to Walmart. I died along the way, I woke up at Walmart. That seems illogical? Of course and comparing heaven to Walmart is equally illogical as being saved by grace through faith is likened to driving to a destination via a car.



I'm merely saying that taking a word built from layers of doctrine and use the word as purely generic grammar would be un-theological. You would no longer be refering to the doctrines involved for "salvation" (soteriology) in the use and quotations with the word salvation or saved.



Sorry. It still is though, no insult intented.

Darren

Whatever.

that makes no sense but as long as you think it does.

 

[Darrenss1]

Regeneration occurs before the new birth as Christ illustrates with the parable of the seeds and soils. This occurs in nature as well with conception and spiritual life taking place prior to birth.

That question was specially catered for Winman since he believes regeneration comes after faith.

Darren

 

[Luke2427]

That question was specially catered for Winman since he believes regeneration comes after faith.

Darren

I know. I was saying you are right which is in direct opposition to your weird hang-up with the Walmart illustration.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Obviously 6:4 is refering to another group not the direct audience -

6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

However that doesn't mean that the people that were irredeemable arrived there because they were almost saved and then had fallen away. I think the second problem you would have to come to is to show how a person can almost be saved to that effect. I can't agree that 6:4-6 is conclusive to support your conclusion.


For example how can you say a person is regenerated after they believe but not before but then be able to be - once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. They can experience partial spiritual experiences, even be a partaker of the Holy Spirit (does that mean indwelling??) yet do this as an unregenerate sinner?? Seems you are adding a further problem to the context in my opinion kind of like propositional isogesis.

Darren

Regeneration occurs before the new birth as Christ illustrates with the parable of the seeds and soils. This occurs in nature as well with conception and life taking place prior to birth.

Many are the spiritually still born- those who sprouted, lived but never were truly born again. Many warnings in Hebrews are directed to those not yet saved to continue in the word lest they draw back unto perdition.

This is what Jesus refers to in John 8 when he said of those who were believing on him- If you continue in my word then are you my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

Hebrews 6 warns those under conviction, being drawn toward Christ to continue because if they fall having come so close then it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance.

 

[Darrenss1]

I know. I was saying you are right which is in direct opposition to your weird hang-up with the Walmart illustration.

Why do you even need a Walmart illustration? So bizare.... :laugh:

Darren

 

[Luke2427]

Why do you even need a Walmart illustration? So bizare.... :laugh:

Darren

It could have been Fred's or Roses for that matter Daren. The point is DESTINATION:BangHead:

I could have said it this way:

If one is headed for point A but believes that he MAY not arrive then it is illogical for him to say I KNOW I will one day be at point A.

There is nothing wrong with this train of thought. Surely by now you see this.

 

[Darrenss1]

It could have been Fred's or Roses for that matter Daren. The point is DESTINATION:BangHead:

I could have said it this way:

If one is headed for point A but believes that he MAY not arrive then it is illogical for him to say I KNOW I will one day be at point A.

There is nothing wrong with this train of thought. Surely by now you see this.

Yes but heaven is not a destination, it is being in the journey that matters. He that HATH the Son hath life. You have the Son you have heaven, no pathfinding required. Perhaps the equation itself defeats logic.

Darren

 

[Luke2427]

Yes but heaven is not a destination, it is being in the journey that matters. He that HATH the Son hath life. You have the Son you have heaven, no pathfinding required. Perhaps the equation itself defeats logic.

Darren

Where do you get this idea that heaven is not a destination? Life and heaven are not the same thing any more than blood and body are the same thing. And then you follow up this strange idea that heaven is not a destination declaring that the JOURNEY matters. So this is a journey with NO destination.

Heaven is a place where we will arrive- therefore it most certainly is a destination by definition. Remember Abraham- looking for city made without hands...?

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing and just admit that your criticism was misplaced.

 

[Darrenss1]

Heaven is a place where we will arrive- therefore it most certainly is a destination by definition. Remember Abraham- looking for city made without hands...?

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing and just admit that your criticism was misplaced.

OK so I get into my car today and drive to heaven....?? Or the only way to get to Walmart is if I die and go to Walmart. Your illustration has little or no actual relevence to the gospel. The promise of the gospel is resurrection from the dead "IF Christ not be raised...".

Therefore if Christ is raised so shall we be as well. Give me resurrection with Christ give me heaven. Grant me eternal life with Christ and I get heaven as well. If I died today I will be in Paradise today, where is the logic and where is the natural illustration to explain that? There isn't one.

Darren

 

[Luke2427]

OK so I get into my car today and drive to heaven....?? Or the only way to get to Walmart is if I die and go to Walmart. Your illustration has little or no actual relevence to the gospel. The promise of the gospel is resurrection from the dead "IF Christ not be raised...".

Therefore if Christ is raised so shall we be as well. Give me resurrection with Christ give me heaven. Grant me eternal life with Christ and I get heaven as well. If I died today I will be in Paradise today, where is the logic and where is the natural illustration to explain that? There isn't one.

Darren

Sure there is... Mustard seeds, seeds by the way side, the prodigal, and the list LITERALLY goes on and on. Your problem is that you don't understand the illustration nor what it illustrates.
It's about arriving at a destination and knowing for sure that you will.
It does not matter if you arrive via a car, a "beam me up Scotty" transport, or via the glorious resurrection nor does it matter if your destination is Walmart, the toilet or Heaven- it is illogical to say that you KNOW that you are going to arrive if you BELIEVE that you may not. That is what the illustration is about.
I will try one more time to help you.

Some Arminians say they KNOW that they are going to be in heaven.

I say that is illogical.

If it is possible for the Christian to not be in heaven then it is impossible for him to KNOW that he WILL be in heaven.

Thus the illustration of the logical flaw.

If one is headed to Walmart (Fred's, Point A, or the toilet- whatever you desire to fill in the blank with) but he believes that he could crash and die before arriving then he cannot logically say- I KNOW I will arrive safely at Walmart.

If you have a problem with using illustrations to expound truth or logic or error and logical flaws then you don't understand the Scriptures nor church history.

BTW, are you still holding to this silly notion that you purported that heaven is not a destination?

 

[Winman]

Some Arminians say they KNOW that they are going to be in heaven.

Anyone who thinks they must persevere cannot know for certain they are going to heaven, because they cannot know if they perservered until life is over. So, neither a Calvinist or Arminian can know for certain.

But myself and many others do not believe in perserverance, we believe in preservation. We are kept by Jesus himself and cannot possibly perish.

There is a big difference between the doctrines of preservation and perserverance. Most Calvinists believe in perserverance and therefore are no more certain than Arminians of heaven.

 

[Darrenss1]

Sure there is... Mustard seeds, seeds by the way side, the prodigal, and the list LITERALLY goes on and on. Your problem is that you don't understand the illustration nor what it illustrates.

Ok so if I died today and today I am walking around in Paradise you can find a natural explanation for that? I was being specific. There were many parables and analogies in the NT when it was possible to use natural terms for supernatural mysteries however, I do believe that there are limits to what can be appropriately compared.

It's about arriving at a destination and know for sure that you will.
It does not matter if you arrive via a car, a "beam me up Scotty" transport, or via the glorious resurrection nor does it matter if your destination is Walmart, the toilet or Heaven- it is illogical to say that you KNOW that you are going to arrive if you BELEIVE that you may not. That is what the illustration is about.
I will try one more time to help you.

The weakness in our own understanding does not change facts. I may not have the theological knowledge that I can't lose the salvation God has given but it doesn't effect the reality one bit. Take into account people's own wrong ideas. Do they have assurance? Possibly. If they are absolutely in Christ, they are saved, having that security is another matter. A right perspective gives that geniune assurance.

Some Arminians say they KNOW that they are going to be in heaven.

I say that is illogical.

I agree.

If you have a problem with using illustrations to expound truth or logic or error and logical flaws then you don't understand the Scriptures nor church history.

BTW, are you still holding to this silly notion that you purported that heaven is not a destination?

How can one make a logical conclusion based on irregular variables?? That's illogical. :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Anyone who thinks they must persevere cannot know for certain they are going to heaven, because they cannot know if they perservered until life is over. So, neither a Calvinist or Arminian can know for certain.

I thought a Calvinist believes that God keeps them 100%, only that a true christian is identified by the fact that they have persevered. Unless I'm missing something, their perseverence did not attribute to their salvation one bit. Therefore they can have assurance if they have believed and been saved.

You're saying while they might "think" to not persevere means they may not be truly saved therefore they cannot have assurance based on their lack of perseverance down the track?.

Darren

 

[Luke2427]

Ok so if I died today and today I am walking around in Paradise you can find a natural explanation for that? I was being specific. There were many parables and analogies in the NT when it was possible to use natural terms for supernatural mysteries however, I do believe that there are limits to what can be appropriately compared.



The weakness in our own understanding does not change facts. I may not have the theological knowledge that I can't lose the salvation God has given but it doesn't effect the reality one bit. Take into account people's own wrong ideas. Do they have assurance? Possibly. If they are absolutely in Christ, they are saved, having that security is another matter. A right perspective gives that geniune assurance.



I agree.



How can one make a logical conclusion based on irregular variables?? That's illogical. :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

I am not illustrating complicated spiritual truths but logical error.

 

[Winman]

I thought a Calvinist believes that God keeps them 100%, only that a true christian is identified by the fact that they have persevered. Unless I'm missing something, their perseverence did not attribute to their salvation one bit. Therefore they can have assurance if they have believed and been saved.

You're saying while they might "think" to not persevere means they may not be truly saved therefore they cannot have assurance based on their lack of perseverance down the track?.

Darren

If you base your assurance on perserverance, you cannot be sure you are saved, because you do not know if you will continue to persevere. The very definition of perserverance is to persist or maintain some act. If you were running a marathon, you know at the moment you are persevering because you are running at the moment. But you do not know if you will finish the race until you cross the finish line.

Calvinists believe in perserverance, not preservation. That is the P in TULIP. You can look up dozens of professions of faith by Calvinists and you will see the P stands for perserverance.

Most Baptists are neither Calvinists or Arminians. We believe that the moment we trust Christ that we receive everlasting life. By definition everlasting means eternal, you cannot die. We are not perservering, we are not trying to maintain our salvation, we already have it.

The many examples of Jesus healing people are a picture of salvation. When a leper or a blind person came to Jesus in faith, he immediately healed them. They were healed once and for all. They did not have to maintain or keep some sort of faith, else they would lose their healing and become a leper or blind person again.

And this is how salvation is, the scriptures say we have passed (past tense) from death to life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

When I trusted Jesus and depended on Him, he gave me everlasting life. I have passed from death to life. I do not have to maintain faith or perservere anything, it is a finished work. If I have to maintain faith, then this life is not everlasting. If I am believing today and have life, but tomorrow quit believing and die, then the life I have today is not everlasting, it is only temporary.

 

[drfuss]

Drfuss,

I appreciate you lingering in the debate as I requested. I know you did not have to and find you to be an upstanding person for doing so.

But Calvinism simply does not teach ANYTHING that would cause a true believer to wonder if he is going to make it to heaven. There is nothing that creates uncertainty about a belief that says that Almighty God does all the saving and keeping. The true Christian does not base his salvation on this idea of waiting to the end to see if he made it which tells him whether or not he was ever truly saved. He bases it on the promises of God and the evidences listed in I John and elsewhere. Therefore, he KNOWS that he is saved and will stay saved. But Calvinism is not what this thread is about.

And I have known for 15 years that many FWB's do not like the term "lose salvation". If you prefer the term "forfeit" I'll try to use that.

Here is what the FWB treatise says:



Do you agree that no Arminian should, under ethical and intellectually honest concerns, promise his converts that coming to Christ will save them from a future hell and get them to heaven one day- since his belief system really does not promise that at all?

Your question is based on a false premise. The Arminian belief does promise that your salvation is eternally secure as long as your continue to trust in Christ. The classic Arminian belief is that your salvation is eternally secure as long as you continue to believe. The Arminian eternally secure salvation is not affected by not committing sin or works; only on if you stop believing.

Here is the same question for the eternal security believer:

Do you agree that no eternal security believer should, under ethical and intellectually honest concerns, promise his converts that coming to Christ will save them from a future hell and get them to heaven one day- since the eternal security belief says that if you stop trusting Christ in the future (as many have), you are not really a true Christian now?

First of all, I am not a FWB, nor have I attended a FWB church. I have belonged to a SBC church for the past 17 years. To join a SBC church, one must be a True Christian. The SBC has 17 Million members with only about 6 or 7 million attending on any given Sunday. My SBC church has a membership of about 6000 who had to be True Christians to join, yet our weekly attendance is around 2200 including children and visitors. Our membership is regularily updated to account for deaths and transfers.

According to the eternal security belief, for every one True Christian that joined our church, two others joined who thought they were True Christians, but were not. With this type of ratio, don't you think you should be warning new Christians that most new Christians think that they are True Christians, but are not?

Luke, you can remain blind to the fact that the uncertainties for both positions are about the same. Most Eternal secuirty Christians are taught not to consider the uncertainty in the eternal secuirty belief, and therefore never consider it. Unfortunately, they are also taught the false belief that all those who don't beleive in eternal security do not have assurance that their salvation is secure.

As I have pointed in my previous posts, the uncertainties are about the same for both positions.

For both positions, these uncertainities become certainties through faith in Christ and His keeping power within each belief.

 

[RAdam]

This thread is a good illustration of why calvinists are wrong on perserverance and I don't consider myself a calvinist. You are absolutely right when you say that calvinists believe one must perservere in order to be considered a "true" born again child of God. That leads invariably to them wondering if one that has strayed away and not returned was every truly saved at all. That is not the doctrine the bible teaches and we are not to judge people in such a manner. God knoweth the heart and knoweth them that are His.

Now, the bible teaches that every one of His sheep are preserved in His hand. They shall never perish. He came down from heaven in order that everyone that had been given Him by the Father before the world began would be with Him for all eternity, and of that number He wouldn't lose one. That was His mission and He accomplished it at the cross. They are in His hand and, as there are no greater beings than God, none can pry them from His hand. That is preservation. It isn't depending on man's acceptance of Him or belief in Him, it isn't depending on man's perserverance. It depends solely on Him and what He did at calvary. If God be for us, who can be against us? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifeth, who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. There is nothing that can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now, perserverance. The child of God should perservere and there is much instruction in this in the scriptures. We need to put on the whole armor of God to withstand the evil one. We need to pray, read God's word, attend preaching of God's word, not forsake the assembling of ourselves together, etc. We need to resist the temptations of the devil. Why? Because it is honoring and pleasing unto God, and if we are disobedient God chastens us. Lot didn't perservere. He lived like the world. He didn't walk by faith. The result was many heartaches and troubles. His righteous soul was vexed by that wicked city he lived in. He ended up losing all he owned and lost his wife and his daughters committed a horrible sin with him that born two of OT Israel's biggest enemies.

 

[Winman]

According to the eternal security belief, for every one True Christian that joined our church, two others joined who thought they were True Christians, but were not. With this type of ratio, don't you think you should be warning new Christians that most new Christians think that they are True Christians, but are not?

How does one determine who is a true Christian? If I ask someone if they believe they will go to heaven, and how they know they will go to heaven, if they answer that they have trusted Jesus and Jesus alone to save them, I have to assume that they are a true Christian. This is the best test I know.
It is an amazing thing to say that someone who believes they are saved because they trusted Jesus might not be saved.

 

[Luke2427]

Your question is based on a false premise. The Arminian belief does promise that your salvation is eternally secure as long as your continue to trust in Christ. The classic Arminian belief is that your salvation is eternally secure as long as you continue to believe. The Arminian eternally secure salvation is not affected by not committing sin or works; only on if you stop believing

Nobody said anything about "works" or "sin". You are addressing straw men. I have said a half dozen times and some of those directly to you that I understand that you don't believe a Christian forfeits his salvation vie sin but unbelief.
You still have this problem that you CANNOT promise converts heaven or escape from hell if they come to Christ because they may STOP BELIIEVING.

Here is the same question for the eternal security believer:

Do you agree that no eternal security believer should, under ethical and intellectually honest concerns, promise his converts that coming to Christ will save them from a future hell and get them to heaven one day- since the eternal security belief says that if you stop trusting Christ in the future (as many have), you are not really a true Christian now?

No, as I have made crystal clear, I don't agree and for the reasons I have already stated multiple times. Calvinism does not teach that you must endure to the end to know that you are saved. Calvinism teaches that the truly regenerate have new natures and the Holy Spirit and these things assure the Calvinist that he is saved.

If a person does not endure HE NEVER HAD THESE THINGS AND THEREFORE WAS STUPID TO BELIEVE THAT HE WAS SAVED.

Luke, you can remain blind to the fact that the uncertainties for both positions are about the same. Most Eternal secuirty Christians are taught not to consider the uncertainty in the eternal secuirty belief, and therefore never consider it. Unfortunately, they are also taught the false belief that all those who don't beleive in eternal security do not have assurance that their salvation is secure.

As I have pointed in my previous posts, the uncertainties are about the same for both positions.

For both positions, these uncertainities become certainties through faith in Christ and His keeping power within each belief.

[/QUOTE]

So it is your contention that NO Christian can have any real certainty about making it to heaven?
There is only uncertainty in the Arminian position. Eternal Security says, "Hey, if you have been truly born again you are going to be in heaven one day."
Arminianism says, "Hey, if you have been born again you might make it but you might stop believing."

This Calvinist uncertainty stuff you keep bringing up is bogus. If anyone can be sure he is saved then the Calvinist can have absolute certainty that he will make it to heaven.

 

[Winman]

If a person does not endure HE NEVER HAD THESE THINGS AND THEREFORE WAS STUPID TO BELIEVE THAT HE WAS SAVED.

Well, you are admitting that a person can be deluded or self deceived and believe he is saved when he is not. If so, then you cannot be sure you are saved, because you might be fooling yourself.

You see, I don't have to worry if I will endure. I know I trusted Christ and my salvation is dependent upon his faithfulness to fulfill his promise to save anyone who comes to him.

A lot of the problem here is not understanding what faith is. Faith is not a force, and it is not a feeling. Faith is based on knowledge about another person. If I asked you to name someone you trust, you could easily name several people quickly. You might say your spouse, or your mother and father, or perhaps a brother or sister.

Is this trust based on a feeling? No. It is based on knowledge and experience. You know from experience that your mother and father truly love you and will be faithful to you. It has nothing to do with feeling. It is not something you have to work up or maintain. They only way you will ever stop trusting these persons is if they betray you.

Suppose a neighbor you have known for years and know to be an honest person asked to borrow your car for an emergency. Because you know them to be a good honest person, you would very likely be willing to trust them with your car.

Now suppose a complete stranger approches you and asks to borrow your car. Would you do it? I know I wouldn't. But it would not be based on a feeling. I would not trust them because I do not know them and whether they are honest or not. Knowledge is the determining factor in faith, not feeling.

If you trust Jesus it is because you have come to know him through the scriptures. You know him to be honest, and someone who would never mislead or deceive you. It is not based on any sort of feeling, and it is not something you have to work up.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, you are admitting that a person can be deluded or self deceived and believe he is saved when he is not. If so, then you cannot be sure you are saved, because you might be fooling yourself.

You are not paying attention.

The only people who can really KNOW that they are saved are those who have a new nature and have the Holy Spirit's inner witness.

I absolutely yield that many have been deluded- that doesn't mean that no one can know that they are saved.

Many have been deluded into thinking they were animals. But just because some people are crazy doesn't mean I can't KNOW that I am a human.

Many have been deluded into thinking they are saved. Their thinking was based on erroneous premises. But everyone who bases their assurance on the right premises can KNOW that he is saved.

If one can KNOW that he is saved and believes Eternal Security then he can KNOW that he will go to heaven one day.

But the Arminian who can KNOW that he is saved for the same reasons the Calvinist can know still cannot KNOW that he will be in heaven because he doesn't KNOW whether or not he will stop believing before he dies.