Can ANY Arminian KNOW that Heaven is his home?

[Eagle]

There is no reason for a saved person to doubt his salvation and there is no reason for a lost person to think that he is saved.

Sweet little summation there Luke2427!

 

[Luke2427]

If they were wrong then how do you know that you are not?

I've been over this and over this dear brother. Because my assurance is based on the truth. Their false belief is based on something that is not true.

The truth is that the new nature is the evidence that proves we are saved.

A false belief is that I have the new nature when I really don't love the brethren or keep Christ's commandments and really don't have the Comforter living inside me.

But since I really DO have the new nature and God is working in me to both will and do of his good pleasure then I KNOW I am saved.

 

[Luke2427]

You did say that this witness is proof of their conversion. So, if they were not saved then the witness you spoke of can not be proof of their salvation. You must be wrong on one point or the other. Which is it? The witness is incorrect or the saved became lost?

It was not the witness of the Holy Spirit they sensed.

 

[thegospelgeek]

This is the first topic to hold my attention for the entire 20 pages. Not too much name calling. It has help me gain a little better understanding of my Calvinist brothers. I do not think I will ever completely understand but then again I am sure you say the same about my beliefs. I do find the Calvinist somewhat illogical and contrictory, I am sure that comes from my lack of understanding. Thank you all for the fine debate.

My belief is that one can have a strong assurance of salvation, while there is the possibility of one making shipwreck (1 Tim 1:9) of there faith, one can make their calling and election sure by continuing in Christ alone(2 Peter 1:10). Please understand that I have arrived at this conclusion through study, not upbringing. I was raised in an Old Regular Baptist Calvinist home, saved in a Weslyen Arminian church, and landed as a classic arminian belief. I see this a being just as certain as the believer who knows they are saved but says that another believer that also knows they are saved can not be saved.

Looking forward to the day we will all worship together.
Love and God Bless,
Keith aka. TheGospelGeek

 

[thegospelgeek]

I've been over this and over this dear brother. Because my assurance is based on the truth. Their false belief is based on something that is not true.

The truth is that the new nature is the evidence that proves we are saved.

A false belief is that I have the new nature when I really don't love the brethren or keep Christ's commandments and really don't have the Comforter living inside me.

But since I really DO have the new nature and God is working in me to both will and do of his good pleasure then I KNOW I am saved.

Sounds exactly like what he would say at one time.

 

[thegospelgeek]

It was not the witness of the Holy Spirit they sensed.

But I thought one who was lost could not seek the things of God, could not confess Jesus as Lord. In fact were uncapable of doing so (1 Jn 4:15).
Last post on this one. THX

 

[Winman]

no he did not. You don't understand the word assurance.

You can't be sure of something that isn't so.

The definition of sure is: unquestionably true or real and not in doubt.

They can't be SURE they are saved if they aren't because being sure means you know that it is so. If it is not so then you cannot KNOW that it is.

You can think, believe, hope or whatever, but you cannot know or be sure if it ain't so.

What lost people believe is of little consequence to the truth of the Perseverance or, if you prefer, eternal security.

These are some of the most non-sensical statements I have ever seen. To say a person is certain or sure does not mean they absolutely know something 100% to be true. When a person says they have assurance of heaven, they are not saying they have 100% knowledge, they are saying they have a firm conviction and belief that they will be saved. That is what faith is.

Have you ever flown on a plane? I am sure you did. You would not have boarded that plane unless you were sure and certain that it was safe. Does that mean you had 100% knowledge it would arrive at it's destination safely? No. You can't know that until the plane lands.

We exercise faith everyday. When you buy a can of soda out of a vending machine you are exercising faith. You are certain and sure the drink is safe to drink or you would not drink it.

But you do not have 100% knowledge that that soda is safe. There is always the small possibility that someone poisoned the drink, or that it was contaminated at the factory with bacteria.

So, everything you said is pure nonsense. We believe we will be saved by faith. We do not have 100% knowledge of it. That does not mean a person cannot have great assurance and certainty in Christ.

If you have 100% knowledge of something, then you cannot have faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[drfuss]

I have followed this thread since I stopped posting on it.

I haven't seen anything on this thread that shows me that the assurance of continued salvation is significantly different for Calvinists, Eternal Security Believers, and Arminians. The only differences are: definitions, terminology, and a play on words.

 

[Winman]

Well, there is a big difference in assurance based on the faithfulness of Christ verses the faithfulness of the believer.

If a person bases their assurance on the faithfulness of Jesus, they can be very certain and assured because Jesus never fails.

If a person bases their assurance on their own faithfulness, then they cannot be very sure, because we all fail and fall into sin often.

Those who persevere are looking at themselves and their own faithfulness, so they can never be very certain of salvation.

If you cannot understand the difference here, I can't help you.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

1 Thess. 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet


Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Unto salvation (eis sôtêrian). Final and complete salvation for "them that wait for him" (tois auton apekdechomenois).


According to the Bible, the Christian in this life is:

• a soldier in a battle (Phil. 2:25; 2 Tim. 2:3,4; Philemon 2);
• a runner in a long distance race (Acts 20:24; 1 Cor. 9:24; Gal. 5:7; 2 Tim. 4:7; Heb. 12:1);
• a worker in the vineyard (Mt. 20:1‑16);
• a fruit tree required to bear good fruit (Jn. 15: 5,6);
• a self‑denying Jesus follower (Lk. 9:23);
• a manager or steward (Mt. 25:14-30; Lk. 12:42-48);
• a witness of Jesus (Acts 1:8,22; 2 Tim. 2:2; Rev. 2:13 cf. Acts 8:1‑4);
• a wrestler against the forces of darkness (Eph. 6:12);
• in a struggle against sin (Heb. 12:4);
• an alien‑stranger in this world whose citizenship is in heaven (1 Pet. 1:1,17; 2:11; Phil. 3:20);
• a servant (or slave) of God (Acts 4:29; 1 Thess 1:9)!

Beyond these descriptions, Christians are also likened unto salt that can possibly lose its saltiness (Mt. 5:13; Lk. 14:34,35); and virgins that can have their lamps run out of oil and stop burning (v. 12). In the end, such foolish virgins will hear Jesus say, I don’t know you (Mt. 25:1-13).
We must also remember we are presently being tested (Jam. 1:12) and told to be faithful to the very end of our lives so that we won’t be hurt by the second death (Rev. 2:10,11), another name for the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8). From all of this, one can see why the Lord commanded us:

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to (Lk. 13:24, NIV).

The Greek reveals a continuous tense effort to enter the kingdom is to be exerted! Furthermore, the word effort (agonizomai) comes from the Greek word from which we get our word agony.

W. E. Vine comments on its usage in this passage:

To strive as in a contest for a prize, straining every nerve to attain to the object, Luke 13:24.[1]

Though many know eternal life is given at the point of initial salvation, these additional truths reveal an aspect of eternal life that few seem aware of or even care to ponder.
According to true grace teaching, eternal life (zoe aionios) is also a hope (Titus 3:7) yet to be reaped (Gal. 6:8,9) in the age to come (Mk. 10:30) for only the ones who persist in doing good (Rom. 2:7) and don’t grow weary and give up (Gal. 6:9)!

[1] W. E. Vine, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (Old Tappan, NJ: Fleming H. Revell Company, 1966), Vol. 2, p. 94.

Most of the above from Daniel D. Corner's book, 'The Believer's Conditional Security', Chapter 5, 'From Initial to Final Salvation'




Ray

 

[Luke2427]

These are some of the most non-sensical statements I have ever seen. To say a person is certain or sure does not mean they absolutely know something 100% to be true. When a person says they have assurance of heaven, they are not saying they have 100% knowledge, they are saying they have a firm conviction and belief that they will be saved. That is what faith is.

Have you ever flown on a plane? I am sure you did. You would not have boarded that plane unless you were sure and certain that it was safe. Does that mean you had 100% knowledge it would arrive at it's destination safely? No. You can't know that until the plane lands.

We exercise faith everyday. When you buy a can of soda out of a vending machine you are exercising faith. You are certain and sure the drink is safe to drink or you would not drink it.

But you do not have 100% knowledge that that soda is safe. There is always the small possibility that someone poisoned the drink, or that it was contaminated at the factory with bacteria.

So, everything you said is pure nonsense. We believe we will be saved by faith. We do not have 100% knowledge of it. That does not mean a person cannot have great assurance and certainty in Christ.

If you have 100% knowledge of something, then you cannot have faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Gospel Geek just made some warm remarks about the great civility of this good debate and then you have to go and poison it with this hyperbole. Any time you type something on here to the effect of "That is the most __________ I've ever heard in my life", you are being over emotional and inflammatory. I would appreciate it if you would avoid that type of emotional hyperbole because it is frustrating and utterly unproductive.

And on top of that you are wrong.

A course on epistemology would help you on this matter.

I gave you the definition for "sure" out of the Encarta dictionary.

You are not disagreeing with me about what words mean but with professional etymologists and authors of a reputable dictionary.

Sure means it has to be true.
Certain means basically the same thing.

You cannot KNOW a thing that is not so. This is a fact that is not up for debate.

Taking your plane illustration- NO, I am not sure that it is safe- neither are you, nor the pilot or anyone else. We don't KNOW what is going on in the engine and we are not sure there is not a terrorist aboard who will blow up the plane, etc, etc, etc... This is the worst illustration I've ever... ooopps!!! you are rubbing off on me!!!

When you say someone KNEW they were saved but they were not you are making an illogical statement.

If a man says he is "sure" that the earth is flat- he is lying. He cannot be sure the earth is flat because it is not.
He can "think" it is flat or "believe" it is flat, but he cannot know, be certain or be sure that it is-.... because it ISN'T.

Please do a word study on these terms before you respond- and please calm down.

 

[Luke2427]

I have followed this thread since I stopped posting on it.

I haven't seen anything on this thread that shows me that the assurance of continued salvation is significantly different for Calvinists, Eternal Security Believers, and Arminians. The only differences are: definitions, terminology, and a play on words.

No sir. You are wrong.

If you believe Christians can KNOW they are saved then you are absolutely wrong.

The Calvinist Christian KNOWS he is saved by the New Nature and therefore he KNOWS he will be in heaven one day.

The Arminian Christian knows the same thing about his salvation but he has NO IDEA whether or not he will miss the fires of hell and be in heaven with Christ. None.

That is a GREAT deal more than semantics (word differences {play on words as you put it})

 

[Luke2427]

But I thought one who was lost could not seek the things of God, could not confess Jesus as Lord. In fact were uncapable of doing so (1 Jn 4:15).
Last post on this one. THX

?????????????

 

[drfuss]

Well, there is a big difference in assurance based on the faithfulness of Christ verses the faithfulness of the believer.

If a person bases their assurance on the faithfulness of Jesus, they can be very certain and assured because Jesus never fails.

If a person bases their assurance on their own faithfulness, then they cannot be very sure, because we all fail and fall into sin often.

Those who persevere are looking at themselves and their own faithfulness, so they can never be very certain of salvation.

If you cannot understand the difference here, I can't help you.

As I pointed out in my many posts, the uncertainty of the eternal security believer is "How does he know that he is really a True Christian, considering that so many eternal security believers who think thay are True Christians, later stop believing?". Jesus is faithful assuming the Christians continues to believe. He does not force Himself on those who stop believing even though they once believed.

I am not going to go over this again. If you really don't understand my position, go back and read my many posts.

 

[Winman]

As I pointed out in my many posts, the uncertainty of the eternal security believer is "How does he know that he is really a True Christian, considering that so many eternal security believers who think thay are True Christians, later stop believing?". Jesus is faithful assuming the Christians continues to believe. He does not force Himself on those who stop believing even though they once believed.

I am not going to go over this again. If you really don't understand my position, go back and read my many posts.

Jesus is faithful even when the believer doubts. When Peter walked to Jesus on the water he took his eyes off Jesus. He heard the wind and saw the waves and began to doubt. Did Jesus let him sink? NO. Jesus "immediately" reached down and caught him.

Matt 14:30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

Did Peter doubt here, did he have unbelief? Yes. Did Jesus forsake him? NO.

Later, after Peter had denied Jesus, he left the ministry altogether and went back to his occupation of fishing. The other disciples also left the ministry with him and went fishing. Who came after them? Jesus!

John 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

Did Peter and the other disciples have a lapse of faith? Yes. Did Jesus forsake them? NO.

This is what I have been trying to tell you, if we depend on our faithfulness, then we cannot have real assurance. But if we depend upon Jesus's faithfulness we can be very sure.

We are "preserved" or kept by Jesus himself. We may often be unfaithful to him, but he will never be unfaithful to us.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

The scriptures show that Jesus is able to "keep" us from falling. A true believer cannot fall away. This is the doctrine of preservation, not perserverance, they are very different. If you believe in perserverance you cannot be sure, if you believe in preservation you can be sure.

If you are truly one of Jesus's sheep you cannot get lost forever, Jesus will come looking for you and find you.

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Jesus is the Good Shepherd, he does not let his sheep get lost. He goes looking for them until he finds them. And Jesus never fails.

 

[rsr]

Having reached page 22, the thread is closed.