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1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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can catholics Go To God Directly In prayers?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Ordinarily, I would not post something off of a tract, but I believe it gives a scriptural rebutal to your statement, AND I am leaving for mass.
"All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary, but how is this pardon received by individuals? Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin? The Bible says he gave us two means.
Baptism was given to take away the sin inherited from Adam (original sin) and any sins we personally committed before baptism—sins we personally commit are called actual sins, because they come from our own acts. Thus on the day of Pentecost, Peter told the crowds, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38), and when Paul was baptized he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). And so Peter later wrote, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21).
For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its.aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8)."
Now, Jesus DID give His Apostles the ability to absolve sin. The priest received the power to forgive sins from God; in the sacrament of holy orders.
Jesus breathed on the apostles and said to them: "Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" (John 20:22, 23).
Completely and absolutely False!
The bible provides only ONE way to receive Christ's satisfaction both before and after the cross - "TO HIM give ALL the prophets witness that WHOSOVER BELIEVETH upon his name SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS" - Acts 10:43
" For unto us was THE GOSPEL preached as well as UNTO THEM; but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
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>Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus- Luke 16:19-31. Jesus portrays the rich man begging Abraham for Abraham's and Lazarus's intercession. Abraham and Lazarus are unable to help the rich man (verses 25-26), but the story does not teach that the rich man did anything wrong by requesting their help.
AND Jesus gave the reason: The Law and the Prophets are sufficient means to obtain one's salvation. The NT is unnecessary.
AND Jesus gave the reason: The Law and the Prophets are sufficient means to obtain one's salvation. The NT is unnecessary.
You make a point that is almost truth. It is not that the New Testment is unnecessary but it did not exist when He said this. The truth you do make is that the gospel was fully revealed in the Old Testament WITHOUT the New Testament and Jesus and the Apostles make that clear (Lk. 24:24-25; 40-45; Acts 10:43; Acts 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2; etc.).
Jews today can read the Gospel in Isaiah 53 and in the Psalms and the gospel is preshadowed in the sacrifices and ordinances.
You need to read the Matthew account of thiis miracle, which ends thus: " But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men." Matthew 9:8. Who were these men who had the power to forgive sins? Jesus is one, but this is plural (men), so there had to be somebody else.
Maybe you would like to explain Matthew 9:8?
This is perhaps the best concise answer to this question I have seen:
The plural may simply be referring to the realm of "men" as a kind and class distinct from God and angels or mankind!
Nonsense! This was the power to pronounce repentance to those who believe the Gospel and pronounce damnation to those who rejected the gospel as the power of salvation is in the gospel not in "men" and I use "men" plural to mean MANKIND.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
There are two problems to this approach to the passage. First, it makes the passage mean something not even remotely related to what it says. All of us are good at that, Biblicist, and that includes both you and me.
Second, I can proclaim the gospel; you can proclaim the gospel. Anyone can proclaim the gospel without having any special charism. But the apostles were first briathed on by Jesus and given an extra measure of the Holy Spirit that the others on Pentecost did not receive. There was a reason for this, and that reason was that they were given a speial charism, the power of absolution.
That is simply not true. A text must be interpreted not merely within its immedaite context but in harmony with the overall context of Scripture dealing with repentance. The scriptures make it clear that preaching the gospel is inclusive of pronouncing remission of sins to every one who believes (Acts 10:43; Luke 24). The scriptures make it clear that such "power" is found in the gospel and not in baptism (1 Cor. 1;17-18 with Acts 26:15-17; 1 Pet. 3:21; etc.)
Rome's interpretation of the The special reception of the Holy Spirit that was breathed out on them at that specific point in their ministry rather than before or after is simply ASSUMPTIONS without any Biblical basis.
I can just as easily assume that betwen the period of Christ as "comforter" leaving and "another Comforter" coming that this was a temporary measure of the Spirit as individual leaders as they led the church in Acts 1:15-2:1.
Biblicist, I always read and respect your perpective. Thanks for the response. I also am wondering about this: James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16, if it is read in the context of James 5:14-15, seems to be referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the presbyters of the Church. When James says “therefore” in verse 16, isn't he referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – wouldn't these men be the presbyters of the Church, to whom we should confess our sins?
There is a reason that for years I could not find confession in these verses. It's because the sacrament did not fit my belief system.
Since 2008 when I became a Christian I have studied every denomination
and attended over 25 different churches, met with many pastors
and priests
Catholic prayer beliefs
From a far it is difficult to understand
1) because they are using language in their catechism that works for 100's of world languages
2) when the belief system originated Greek, Hebrew, Araimaic, Latin all had many words for pray and love not just one.
They believe in the communion of saints as stated in the apostles creed that was written some time between 33ad and 180ad
This means to them saints and Mary can hear us and pray for us as a fellow believer can pray for us on earth.
Answer is
1) they constantly pray to God directly as the lords prayer is in thier church service every time and the lords prayer in part of the rosary
2) they don't believe they are praying to saints and Mary they believe they are asking them to pray for them.
Most of my studies are catholism, eastern orthodoxy, oriential orthodoxy, if anyone has questions
and attended over 25 different churches, met with many pastors
and priests
Catholic prayer beliefs
From a far it is difficult to understand
1) because they are using language in their catechism that works for 100's of world languages
2) when the belief system originated Greek, Hebrew, Araimaic, Latin all had many words for pray and love not just one.
They believe in the communion of saints as stated in the apostles creed that was written some time between 33ad and 180ad
This means to them saints and Mary can hear us and pray for us as a fellow believer can pray for us on earth.
Answer is
1) they constantly pray to God directly as the lords prayer is in thier church service every time and the lords prayer in part of the rosary
2) they don't believe they are praying to saints and Mary they believe they are asking them to pray for them.
Most of my studies are catholism, eastern orthodoxy, oriential orthodoxy, if anyone has questions
No need to spin anything....it says what it says, it is a Psalm, a poetic song, and he is ostensibly levelling a command...He is telling them to:
Psa 103:19 The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.
Psa 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
Psa 103:21 Bless ye the LORD, all [ye] his hosts; [ye] ministers of his, that do his pleasure.
Psa 103:22 Bless the LORD, all his works in all places of his dominion: bless the LORD, O my soul.
He issues a tacit command, he "invokes" nothing....the context is found in vs.19, he is speaking of angels to support his contention phrased in vs 19.
One need neither pray to, nor "invoke" a creature of lower standing towards God Note:
1Cr 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Cr 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
My observations as well. I have participated in a Catholic prayer group for over a year and the vast majority (probably 98%, and the other 2% are asking for intercession of the saints) of the prayers are directly addressed to the Father and concludes 'through our Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with You (Father) in the unity of the Holy Sprirt, ever One God, now and forever, Amen'. Actually, it would be very hard to distinguish these Catholic prayer groups from the Baptist ones I used to participate in.
If you read James you will see he changes subject constantly from chapter one to chapter five. Verses 14-15 is one subject while verse 16 is another subject and this can be easily seen for several contextual based reasons.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
This is instruction to an individual member "among you" in relationship to the elders, whereas verse 16 is instruction to all who have faults, which include the elders as they are not without faults but is simply in relationship to "ONE ANOTHER" not with a specific class in the church as elders. That fact in and of itself repudiates the Roman Catholic interpretation.
In the former the elders pray but in the latter it can be any member among them that is a "righteous man."
Finally, this is GENERAL confession with "one another" but it does not refer to SPECIFIC faults which are directed to be handled completely differently (Mt. 18:15).
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
These texts do not support the Catholic interpetation at all but acutally repudiates it.
It doesn't mean there was more than one man.
The phrase, "given authority to men," refers to "mankind." They had only seen miracles up to this point. His Messiahship had not been revealed to them yet. Thus "men" is used, as miracles done by men. If Christ at this point was being referred to as the Messiah, the singular definitely would have been used. But this was early in his ministry and that fact had not been revealed yet.
But Matthew wrote this account many years later when all things had been revealed to him.
"But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men." Matthew 9:8.
The first part of this sentence describes the reaction of the crowds, i.e., awestruck and glorifying God. The second part of the sentence, i.e., "who had given such authority to men," is not the observation of the crowds but is a statement of fact supplied by Matthew, who knew that he and the other apostles had been granted the power of absolution.