Can Catholics use artificial means of birth control?

[Pauline]

wishtolearn,
People do not have to give in to the sex urge every time and every moment it hits them. There is such a thing as letting the intellect guide the will.

The Catholic Church did not set up the standard against contraception. God did. And every Christian church knew that and taught for generations. God is Life. Contraception is a sin against life. I think you have a view that the Church decides what is right and moral and what isn't. You're wrong. God decides. The Church can only teach and pass on what she was given. Anyone who argues for contraception is arguing against God. That's why it's essential for the Protestants to get back to the truth on this matter.

Anyone can refrain from sex rather than destroy life. Natural Family Planning works well and effectively for couples who have serious reasons for limiting the size of their families. Young people who practice it tell me that it greatly strengthens love and communication in the marriage relationship -- contraception does not do that.

I know too about priests who have commited sex sins, and Protestant pastors and married men who aren't priests or pastors. So what's your point? That celibacy caused the sex sins? The statistics show that's not true. The percentages are about the same for married as for unmarried. I also know that for every priest who ever commited a sexual sin there are many who stayed pure and celibate all their lives. And they used their celibacy for good for God and other people. We don't hear much about them in the media, do we? But I know them and they've influenced my life and helped me find a deeper walk with my Lord.

BTW, I don't know how it bears on this discussion but I have three children and we took two nephews into our home when they were taken away from their parents by the state. I also have four grandchildren and three great-grandchilden. And everyone of them is a dear (Want to see photos?

)

Pauline

 

[Kathryn S.]

Genesis 1:28
God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Genesis 9:1
And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.

Genesis 9:7
"As for you, be fruitful and multiply;
Populate the earth abundantly and multiply in it."

Genesis 35:11
God also said to him, "I am God Almighty;
Be fruitful and multiply;
A nation and a company of nations shall come from you,
And kings shall come forth from you.

Jeremiah 23:3
"Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and multiply.


When did God say to decide for ourselves if we want to have children and how many? God never told us to be fruitful and multiply until we think there are too many people in the world, or it isn't convienent for us.

Any group of people who use artificial means of birth control are doomed to die out eventually. The people who are fruitful and multiple according to God’s will are the people who will be around generations from now. It is very shortsighted to think only of ourselves and our will. God told us what His will is.

God Bless

[ December 23, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

[wishtolearn]

Sure Pauline, send them to my email address. I'm happy for you.

Can you still educate me on how contraception is associated with the euthanazia of the elderly? I'm curious as to how this is connected.
As far as a society of people dying out due to contraception, can you explain to me where you see this happening?
I am all for responsible actions where sexuality is concerned. I have seen too many examples of couples that have used children as a means to an end. A child will not improve a marriage, will not save it, will not strengthen it in all cases. Many of my peers who have been irresponsible where birth control is concerned are now struggling with visitations, child support, etc. Some of these people had very good intentions when they were pregnant or when the child was born but were emotionally and mentally and financially unable to care for it. And who suffers? The child. My parents as well who got married for God-knows-what-reason, had children, why? Because Grandma and Grandpa and society expected it of them. Were they emotionally prepared for it? Definately not and my brother and I still deal with this and we are in our 30's. We live with the fact that neither of us were ever wanted, but expected. I enjoy being on this earth, but people need to think things out a bit more before doing them, especially the act of bringing children into this world.

 

[wishtolearn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
wishtolearn,
Re: the connection between contraception and the death of the elderly, i.e. euthanasia":

It's all about our values: Widespread use of contraception brought about a change in how people value marriage, babies, responsibility, what constitutes a valuable human being and life in general. Look in magazines: sex is for pleasure without added responsibility for a family. Let's all stay young and fun-loving and free!!! All this has affected how we see ourselves, others, age, and disability.

Staying young and fun loving and free is something most people try to do. Ask my 62 year old neighbor and best friend how and why she does it and she'll tell you it beats the alternative.

It began showing up in books and articles years ago. If someone isn't productive, he shouldn't receive medical treatment. At first it was a discussion of what major medical services he shouldn't receive. But then it progressed. Now in Oregon, you can get medical assistance money to help you die but not for some of the life-giving procedures. Workers in the medical field now are being taught about helping people die, as I related about the smearing of petroleum jelly around the lips while killing them by withholding food and water. One nurse told me that to die this way is a horrible death.

Helping people die with dignity. You cannot stop the inevitable. Medical workers should be taught that death is a spiritual separation and not just a physical one.

You aren't hearing more about it because the media slants their info. If I remember the figure correctly, 31 countries are now in trouble due to reduced population problems. Have you heard about that? Have you heard about the traumatizing effects of abortion on women who have them? Have you heard about all the women injured or killed by legal abortions? Not from most of the media.

Yes, I have heard of the traumatizing affects of abortion on women. I personally would not have one but I will not make up someone else's mind for them. If people used birth control responsibly, the need for abortions would decrease. And besides, I DO NOT want to get into that discussion with anyone. Anti-abortionists are someone I want to stay far, far away from.

You have to find publications/organizations that will give you the facts. And study it out for yourself.

Why don't you list your sources for this information please.

Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[ventin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:
ventin,
It is certainly not necessary for a bishop to be married. Jesus spoke of those who could make themselves eunuchs for God's sake. St. Paul wrote about staying single so as to be able to concentrate fully on serving God.

Pauline, i have not doubt that some can make themselves eunuchs and serve God generally and fully. i am pointing to a specific office as a bishop. so according to scriptures, should a bishop marry and why? i already bold the text.



So the celibate life is the better calling for priests and bishops. However, not all can follow that calling. Therefore, in earlier times and in certain rites of the Church today, priests are allowed to be married but only once. I do not know if any of the Catholic rites still allow bishops to be married. I think not.

This is a discipline. It can be changed. Personally, I consider the Church very wise in calling bishops and priests to celibacy in the Latin Rite. Think of our faithful Catholic bishops in China who have spent thirty or so years in prison. Consider how that situation would have gone if they'd had wives and children.

Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so can i conclude that this doctrine of bishops cannot marry is due solely to the wisdom of the church, nothing to do with scriptures?

btw, i know of missionaries that are both married with no kids, married with kids and not married. They are all doing fine.

 

[Kathryn S.]

Ventin: Here is some scriptural support that celibacy is preferable. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> His disciples said to him, "If that is the case between man and wife, it is better not to marry." He said, "Not everyone can accpt this teaching, only those to whom it is given to do so. Some men are incapable of sexual activity from birth, some have been deliberately made so; and some there are who have freely renounced sex for the sake of God's reign. Let him accept this teaching who can." Mt 19:10-12 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>..everyone who has given up home, brother or sister, father or mother, wife or children or property for my sake...Mt 19:29 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> To those not married..it would be well if they remain as they are, even as I do myself. 1 Cor 7:8 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The unmarried man is busy with the Lord's affairs, concerned with pleasing the Lord; but the married man is busy with this world's demands and occupied with pleasing his wife. This means he is divided. ...1 Cor 7:32-35 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> He said, "Not everyone can accept this teaching, only those to whom it is given to do so.. Matt 19:11 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God Bless

 

[Pauline]

ventin,
Scripture does not mean a bishop has to marry. It does mean if he is married, he can have been the husband of only one wife. He could never have been divorced and remarried and if he was widowed he could not marry again. To say he has to marry would be to go against the words of Jesus and the words of St. Paul -- both of whom spoke favorably for those who would live celibate lives for God.

The Apostle John never married, neither did Paul. There is no record that either Titus or Timothy ever married. Scripture cannot contradict itself. Therefore it cannot say in one place the bishop has to be married and then turn around and show cases that contradict that.

Yes, my husband and I were missionaries and our children were with us. And there are many Catholic families on the mission field today. So does that mean that bishops and priests should be married? No, it does not.
Bishops are better bishops, priests are better priests when they belong 100% to their people. This is true in America today in our parishes. But it would be many times more true if we were under persecution. Then the bishops and priests are called to lay down their lives for their people.

What about a Chinese priest from America who decides to return to China to serve in the underground church there. He is called to risk death or imprisonment for years. Can you not see the wisdom in the fact that he is not married?

A Lutheran woman told me that during the Nazi regime in Germany, a Catholic priest went to a public park and tried to warn the people about Nazism. Could he have risked his life like that if he'd had a family? Would it have been fair to them? Our bishops and priests do not belong to themselves.
They belong to God. They cannot belong to a wife and blood children at the same time.

Pauline

 

[Pauline]

wishtolearn,
I appreciate the fact that you are "all for responsible actions where sexuality is concerned."

I think the best place to start is Dr. Janet Smith's audiotape: Contraception, Why Not?
You can get it from: One More Soul at
1-800-307-7685. I've passed it on to people and consider it the best for busy people who want to look into this subject.

I've never read it but a book that is highly recommended is "Christian Fatherhood" by Steve Wood. Available from Family LIfe Center, 1-800-705-6131.

If you'd like some other titles and addresses after you get one or both of these, let me know.

Helping the elderly to die with dignity is one thing. Certainly that's how I want to die and want my loved ones to die. But what we're dealing with among too many in our soecity today is making the elderly feel they are useless, talking them into physican-assisted suicide -- making them feel they have a duty to die and not to let it happen naturally. You know that we've had several cases of physician-assisted suicides in our state. Reports have said mostly because of depression in the older person, and in at least one case it appeared to be accompanied by pressure from a family member.

I told you about my friend who was struggling to recover from a lung infection, when the doctor walked in and invited her to die. Told her to just let him know when she was ready. How's that for good doctoring?! Fortunately she had enough spunk left in her to get angry and to not take him up in it. That was about three years ago, and she's still alive today. Right now she's with her children for the holidays. She says she will never return to that hospital. So what's she supposed to do if she gets sick again?

Pauline

 

[ventin]

Diciple,
thanks 4 ur attempt to answer my question. May i know which verse refers to the office of bishop? i am now talking about a very specific role here.

Pauline,
do i understand ur reason in v2 that says husband of one wife does not mean that the man must be married. then in v4, ruleth well over his own house, whose house is this?
and having his children in subjection, whose children is this?

The examples u quote are indeed valid. But it is not scriptures contradict scriptures. it is scripture contradicts tradition.

which leads me to think of whether u believe scriptures are God-breathed or written by man? If Paul is to write it, as a multiple PH.D holder in our days, wont he see this fault and write something as to model himself or any of the apostles?

so from what i see,
1. Scriptures cannot stand alone as authoritative.
2. scriptures at its best, when contradict tradtions, preference will be given to tradition in interpretation.

Am i right in my conclusion?

 

[Kathryn S.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Diciple,
thanks 4 ur attempt to answer my question. May i know which verse refers to the office of bishop? i am now talking about a very specific role here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ventin: All these verses apply to the office of Bishop. Scripture is saying it is preferable to be unmarried.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> His disciples said to him, "If that is the case between man and wife, it is better not to marry." He said, "Not everyone can accpt this teaching, only those to whom it is given to do so. Some men are incapable of sexual activity from birth, some have been deliberately made so; and some there are who have freely renounced sex for the sake of God's reign. Let him accept this teaching who can." Mt 19:10-12 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>..everyone who has given up home, brother or sister, father or mother, wife or children or property for my sake...Mt 19:29 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> To those not married..it would be well if they remain as they are, even as I do myself. 1 Cor 7:8 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The unmarried man is busy with the Lord's affairs, concerned with pleasing the Lord; but the married man is busy with this world's demands and occupied with pleasing his wife. This means he is divided. ...1 Cor 7:32-35 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> He said, "Not everyone can accept this teaching, only those to whom it is given to do so.. Matt 19:11 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who do you think these verses are addressed to? Do you have an explanation for what these verses are all about? Why does St. Paul say it is better to remain unmarried?
What was Jesus talking about when He said,
"some there are who have freely renounced sex for the sake of God's reign. Let him accept this teaching who can." Mt 19:10-12

God Bless

 

[Pauline]

ventin,
We mustn't lift out the verses on bishops that you are refering to and make them contradict other scriptural teachings.

Disciple is correct: Christ's words on celibacy and St. Paul's words on it apply to all Christians. So that has to include the bishops and priests too. The words of Jesus Christ are the primary words in scripture. This is our God speaking. Everything else in scripture has to agree with His words. That's why we call the Bible, the word of God, because He gave it to us.

We certainly are not opposing tradition to scripture in this case.

Then there is the evidence that so many Church leaders in the NT are single. Paul chose not to marry. John the Apostle never married. Nothing is said about Titus or Timothy having wives or a family. If you were writing to somene you loved as a son, would you not ask about or give greetings to his wife? Or would you ignore her as if she didn't exist?

Are you in a church that has bishops and presbyters (priests) and deacons?

Pauline

 

[wishtolearn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pauline:





I told you about my friend who was struggling to recover from a lung infection, when the doctor walked in and invited her to die. Told her to just let him know when she was ready. How's that for good doctoring?! Fortunately she had enough spunk left in her to get angry and to not take him up in it. That was about three years ago, and she's still alive today. Right now she's with her children for the holidays. She says she will never return to that hospital. So what's she supposed to do if she gets sick again?

Pauline<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Go to a different hospital/doctor? I think you're taking some rare cases and assuming that this is the way it is country-wide. Millions of people die every day, not even a handfull of them are "assisted". However, even tho this is not the intended topic, if I were in an accident or whatever the case, I would not wish to have my life extended by machines indefinately.

 

[Pauline]

wishtolearn,
People used contraception which contributed to selfish attitude. Sex became an act of hedonism without the responsibility. Next they didn't want the pregnancy when it happened, so they used abortion as their contraception. They quit calling them "babies", now it was just a "glob of tissue". It doesn't become a baby until the mother wants it, they said. And a glob of tissue can't feel any pain, right? Besides there were only a few cases of abortion at first, right?

Now they were getting more material things, life was more comfortable, they were enjoying more pleasures, and more money in investments meant a greater sense of security. They maintained belief in a god, but it wasn't the God who tells people what is right and good. It was a god who told them they were doing A-OK just as they were. That their moral standards were exactly right. The fact that the "few" abortions had grown to over one million per year didn't seem important. (1973-1997 over 35 million in the USA, each year worldwide there are 50 million abortions) If one abortion was okay, then millions must be okay too, right?

Then they began to get concerned about the things that were disturbing their comfort and security zone. They didn't like that disabled child that lived next door. They didn't like the thought of suffering as they got older. And they didn't like the idea of caring for their elderly relatives. They also didn't like paying taxes nor the cost of medical care for the non-productive. They saw an answer to all of the above. These people don't have a reason to live because they aren't productive, so let's help them die. Of course, there will only be a few of them put to death this way, right?

Now, there's only one doctor or so per town that is working for euthanasia. Nothing to be concerned about there, right? And the benevolent state is generous in funding the physician-assisted suicides of the non-productive poor. And a family is given great publicity on TV while putting their disabled son/brother to death by starvation and dehydration. There are advantages to all this. If a grown child feels his/her lifestyle isn't comfortable and secure enough, s/he can tell Mom all about the responsibility of dying and leaving her money to the grown child. Make Mom feel useless enough and she will let you take her to a doctor known to favor assisted suicide. Now all is taken care of: Mom is buried and the grown child is more secure.

Then studies showed that the baby was not just a glob of tissue which became a baby when the mother wanted it. A well known abortionist took a picture of a baby screaming as it was aborted. He got out of the business and became a Christian. But by then it was too threatening to the enjoyable lifestyles of most people for them to backtrack. So they became more calloused to killing their young. They extended the age at which the baby could be killed right up to the time of the birth. Of course, then studies proved that babies in the womb feel pain more intensely than others. So now abortionists are being called upon to be compassionate -- give the baby a pain-killer shot before you stab him or her. Most of the babies aborted are girls, you know.

What do you suppose will happen next?

Pauline

[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: Pauline ]

[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: Pauline ]

 

[ventin]

Hi Disciple and Pauline,

in case u dont get me, the scriptures disciple quote not doubt says that it is better to remain single. BUT it is not specific to Bishops alone. i agree with Pauline that u say it is the christian community at large.

My point is that, those are talking about general christians which do include bishops. But here in 1Tim 3:2-7, it is specific to bishops. we cant use this passage and apply it to the rest of the christedom. i must say in a mathematical term, this passage is a subset of all the verses disciple has quoted. will u agree with me on that?
or are we going to ignore these specific commands to specific roles and have preferance of general commands to general roles?

Now if Paul din meant that the Bishop is married, then who does the children and own house refer to?

 

[wishtolearn]

Pauline,
Who exactly is "They"? And again, please cite your resourses.
Sex without responsibility? I personally do not want to get pregnant every time I have sex with my husband.This is something we do because we love each other, not because we are "hedonists". I'm not going to turn this thread into something rather personal and I guard with privacy. Maybe you have sex for another reason, I don't know. I know why I have it and that's that.
As far as the birth control goes, I use it, I have never had an abortion because I use it properly and took the time to be educated on it. I have no problem with the handicapped and if one lived next door to me, I'd consider it a blessing. I cherish my elderly relatives and I know a lot of people who are non-productive because they choose to be, not because they are old. I'm not going to get into the abortion issue with you or anyone else for that matter because I find all aspects of it AND it's opponents disturbing. Sorry you have had some issues with yourself and your peers as you grow older, no one said it was going to be a rose garden. Go ahead and blame contraception, I just think you're looking for a scape goat and you believe everything you read.
We will agree to disagree.
Merry Christmas to you and your family.

 

[Pauline]

wishtolearn,
Truth is truth and it wouldn't take a great deal of study on your part to find it. I suggest you get and listen to the Dr. Janet Smith tape.

Pauline

 

[Pauline]

ventin,
The passage on bishops cannot be saying they have to be married -- that would contradict other scripture passages, including the words of our own Lord who is God.

Those passages mean that if a bishop is married he can be the husband of only one wife and must be in control of his children and household. Don't you see that by isolating that passage on bishops and ignoring the other passages on celibacy, you are not using scripture wisely and fairly.
Are you going to go against our Lord's own words and say that it is wrong for a bishop to be celibate? If so, then you are setting up your own teaching in opposition to scripture.

No, we are not posing tradition against scripture. Were you hoping we would do that?
We aren't.

Catholic teaching is that tradition and scripture CAN NEVER contradict one another!

Pauline

 

[trying2understand]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wishtolearn:
As far as the birth control goes, I use it, I have never had an abortion because I use it properly and took the time to be educated on it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps not as educated as you believe yourself to be.

I suggest you look at the thread entitled "Abortive effects of oral contraception".

 

[wishtolearn]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trying2understand:


Perhaps not as educated as you believe yourself to be.

I suggest you look at the thread entitled "Abortive effects of oral contraception".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whatever. My husband has had a vasectomy now so that solves that

 

[trying2understand]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wishtolearn:

Whatever. My husband has had a vasectomy now so that solves that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A couple of questions:

What are you now going to teach your children about the right/wrong of artificial birth control?

Isn't a vasectomy self mutilation? Is it that different than a tatoo or body piercing or breast enlargement?