Can Christians always tell when they are wrong about doctrine?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It is many years since I learned German, so I may well not have got the meaning right. Is it something like:

"Christianity stands and falls with the resurrection of Jesus from the dead through God. There is in the New Testament no a priori belief that does not start with the resurrection of Jesus.....Christian belief which is not "resurrection belief" is neither Christian, nor belief."


​

Please correct me - I will not take offence!

GE
Perfect rendering! I posted it in the original because it was so striking -You know, I could never 'place' these statements by Moltmann within his book, 'Theology of Hope' - it remains an enigma today still - and the theology of revolution inspired by this book more than any other - is just too much for my understanding. Nevertheless, this is where this wonderful statements have come from and which I have made the dictum of all my thinking!

 

[yahoshea]

I was hoping this thread would lead to some discussion on principles for honest interpretation. Would anyone like to go there with me?

 

[BobRyan]

Exegesis

1. What was the intended meaning of the writer to his readers in his day?

2. What traditions/culture influence would have guided/directed influenced the readers.

3. How does the author use the same teaching in his other writings.

4. How do other bible authors reference that same doctrine?

5. Does the Bible give keys- rules for interpreting a given symbol?

6. Are there "inconvenient details" in the text that a given view "must ignore"?

7. Is this a parable? If so what is the "clear intent" clear "teaching" that the parable is meant to convey?

ETC.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, I believe that anyone can determine if a held doctrine or belief is right or wrong, simply by determining what the Scriptures say about the subject and comparing it with the held belief.

..
I think the problem lies in the difference between matters of faith, and matters of opinion. All can agree on matters of faith. It is the opinions of men that have brought about the divided state of "Christendom" we see around us in the world, even here on these boards.

So we all agree that it is seldom that Christians know that they are in error and we all agree that the source of error is most often the mixing of bias or man-made-tradition with what we are reading in scripture so that we "read through a lense" that ignores details that don't fit bias.

How do we address the problem individually?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that those a e a good starting point, but as I said you will find many that will start out agreeing with these only to drop them when these principles begin to dispute a pet doctrine.

No question this is where the rubber meets the road.

As I often point out - take Peter in Matt 16 -- he just stated that Christ is the Son of God - the true predicted Messiah -- then he "corrects Christ" saying "Oh no Lord may it never be".

And what does Christ say? "Get thee behind Me satan".

There is a difficulty here that even Christ's disciples had to overcome.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Do you seek to understand your rich Judeo-Christian history? Do you seek to know God’s plan for all men and you personally? Do you seek to know the character of Christ and become like him?
Your motives in researching the word will strongly effect whether you will follow these principles or not.

Good point -- doctrinal discovery must start with prayer and submission -- choosing what you find in scripture over all pre-bias.

We all interpret whatever we read. Interpretation is the basis under which we comprehend what is being said. In order to really be honest with the Word it is necessary to have certain logical rules for interpretation. These rules are commonly called Hermeneutics or principles of exegesis. They are based on logic and very simple concepts of the christian walk.

Can't live with it- can't live without out.

Our interpretation is flawed - because we are sinful flawed beings. Recognizing this we must choose to submit to the Spirit of God in allowing scripture to be the "interpreter of scripture" EVEN though like the Jews of old - the human tendancy is for MAN to be the interpreter.

We must fight it every time we study.

The most common form of interpretation used today is called “Cut and Paste Theology”. In this method a person can take a scripture out of context put it with several others, disregarding any proper hermeneutical principles and make a doctrine out of it. Not understanding the culture or definitions of words. Using ambiguous scriptures that are misinterpreted to contradict very clear scriptures. With this type of “scholarship” a person can prove just about anything from scripture. When one actually looks at these doctrines with proper principles they completely fall apart.

The problem is that almost everyone says "you took that out of context" IF the result of the text is a "doctrine I do not prefer".

And obviously that IS NOT the true definition of "context" but it is the MOST COMMON one used even on this board.

So it might be nice to mark that sinful tendancy down and deliberately confront it in our own Bible studies.

This is not to say that there are not scriptures that can stand on their own but always must also stand within the proper interpretive process. In otherwords they need no other scriptures for their meaning to be very clear.
First we must be honest with ourselves and our nature ---
1. We are easily deceived - Jeremiah 17/9 - “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick. Who can understand it? We must be willing to set aside our preconceived ideas and let God speak to us. We must be willing to set aside our pride and fear in our hearts. Our fear of being proven wrong. We must have enough courage to trust God that if the truth stands in contradiction to what we have always believed then we must love the truth more then our historical beliefs.
II Thessalonians 2/10 - 13 “.... And with all the deception of wickedness for those that perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved....” We must love the truth no matter how it upsets our apple cart. The word must be the final authority no matter how it shakes our traditions or doctrines.
Most Christians will proclaim this until you touch a pet doctrine that they are afraid to change.

That is a great point.

I was hoping this topic would go that direction.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yahoshea

2. The purpose and inspiration of Scripture -
II Timothy 3/16 and 17 - “All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
( This comes right back to the motive. The truths we derive from scripture must train us for righteousness and equip us for good works.)

We start from a premiss that the “original scriptures” as written by the prophets and apostles were inspired by God Himself. No particular later translation has inspiration. There are good and bad translations. Those who penned the scriptures wrote exactly what God wanted to say and that God wants us to know the truth. God used the personalities of the authors, situations, natural realm and circumstances for the purpose of teaching us. The purpose of scripture is to win the lost and to teach the saved how to become like Christ and walk with God as He did.
We must also come to grips with the fact that one book cannot contain everything about God. Not even this magnificent testimony in scripture can tell us all the facts about the actions of Jesus on this earth.
John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, which if they were written in detail, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that would be written.

Another great point.

For example Genesis 1-8 is not an exhaustive record of everything said or done for 1600 years.

Even great knowledge about the scriptures cannot take the place of personal interaction and relationship with God. You can study all the scriptures about salvation. You can read all the great teachers on the subject, but untill you experiance the sweet grace of God and feel the burden of sin lifted from your soul and the first intimate touch of the Holy Spirit, you do not know salvation. The word is a teaching tool to bring us to relationship with Christ.

Amen!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yahoshea

3. In the past 100 years there have been very significant archeological finds that directly impact our understanding of scripture such as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Keep you research material current.
Now that we have established a basis to begin, let’s talk about the fundamentals of understanding scripture.
Here is a list of principles to use to properly use, translate, and understand scripture.
1. Scripture must interpret scripture. No one has a private interpretation but all proofs must come from the word itself. A good idea and safety is to use scriptural terms to understand the meaning of a verse.
2. It does not matter what we believe to be true or how we feel about a subject. All that matters is what can be clearly and properly proven in the word.

True - but it might help for us to write down our bias first and then admit that this is the "filter" that we will need to resist in reading the text - because we already "want scripture to say that".

3. Spend a majority of time in clear understandable scripture. Never base a belief on ambiguous scriptures.
4. There is only one truth. Never base a doctrine on an interpretation of scriptures that causes contradiction with other clear scriptures. If there is a seeming contradiction, this indicates a need for further research to ascertain the truth. A clear scripture always supersedes and ambigous one and does not cause a contradiction.
5. When attempting to understand a difficult scripture follow these guidelines --
A. Form a hypothesis of what you think it may mean then test it. this really is automatic, since we will come to an idea by simply reading the verse in question.
B. Does your idea fit the immediate context? This is the first and formost challenge and the one most often missed.
C. Does your idea fit the general over all tenor or context of scripture and the heart of God. This can be a bit more difficult since some Christians have false ideas about the heart of God and His character.

This is good.

Another point is -- "are there some inconvenient details in this chapter or verse that I need to ignore to cling to my preferred interpretation"

D. Is the language figurative or literal. In many cases a little common sence can be applied here. For instance no biologist in the world is going to confirm the existance of a seven headed beast as is mentioned in Revelations. This is obviously a figuritive story.
E. Understand the historical, geographical or cultural time in which it is written.

Indeed -the Bible is to be taken literally except in parables or when an obvious symbol is used.

And another way to state E -- "what would the immediate primary audience - the contemporary reader have gotten from the way this was written"

F. Understand who was inspired to write the scripture and to whom it was being written.
G. Use several translations to avoid the possible bias of one particular translator.
H. I. Compare scripture with scripture. Compare a questionable scripture to other scriptures that use the same words or speak of the same concepts.
J. Understand that God uses allegories and parables to teach spiritual truth.
K. God uses the physical realm to teach about the spiritual realm.
L. God lives out of our linear time frame and looks at things from an eternal perspective.
M. The original text was not separated into chapter and verse. Many times one verse is directly related to, or part of, the verses before or after it. Many times they are connected by words such as “for” or “and”. (Furthermore for those more advanced in ancient manuscripts of scripture, much more weight should be placed on older copies of scripture then on more recent copies. (there is less chance for errors in copying)
P. The original text is written in several languages from several time periods and cultures. Hebrew writers think differently then those of us brought up in the modern world. Their writings also are effected by this difference. We must therefor understand how Hebrews thought and wrote. In the cases of the epistles, you must understand the culture and circumstances of the people to which the letter is written.
Q. In the case of seeming contradictions where one scripture says one thing and dozens say the opposite go with the preponderance of evidence. In other words side with the majority of clear scripture until the apposing scripture can be properly understood.

Excellent!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

R. In the gospels Jesus uses a form of debate common among rabbis of that time. He would quote a portion of scripture and the Pharisees would know that He implied the entire context of that verse. In this manner he would allow them to see the conclusion he wanted them to see without pointing to it exactly. He led them to the truth without confrontation.

This is a good point - Matt 22 is a good example of "doctrinal debate" between Christ and the Sadducees. Let's see how your method holds up.

1. To understand it you have to account for the obvious meaning of Christ's words to Sadducees

2. You must admit to the context of the OT stories he was referencing.

3. You must keep in mind the context of the debate --
a. his stated "purpose" in PROVING the "resurrection" to a group that did not believe in the resurrection

b. a hostile audience that would not "simply take Christ's Word for it".

c. In a debate with a hostile group - the only way to "convince" or "silence" is to use premise arguments that they agree with and then force them down a path where there is only one solution - one way out -- and in this case that must be "the resurrection".

Using the methods you have outlined the conclusion can be determined easily - but it will shake cherished beliefs - prio-bias to the very core.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Use the method you like, the sources, the helps, the Dictionaries, the linguistics, the genius of the Greats - if not Chirst is exalted and perceived as in rising from the dead in the Glory of the Father -- it's all IN ERROR!

 

[BobRyan]

If Christians can not tell when they are in doctrinal error - what chance do they have in discussions on this board to "discover the fact"?

 

[BobRyan]

Scribe has just started a thread on 2Thess 2 regarding the dilusions of those who "do not receive a love of the truth" -- but given that most people on this thread agreed that Christiains seldom know that they are clinging to error - how does the "strong delusions" warning come in -- from 2Thess 2?