Can Christians respect atheists?

[tulpje]

Originally posted by radiochemist:
To return to the theme of this thread, everyone is an atheist with respect to most Gods that have been accepted in the past. Even Baptists are atheists with respect to Zeus, Baal, etc.

Are people bad who don't believe in Zeus? When one puts atheism in that context, it seems different somehow. Some christians claim that atheism is the root of many problems in this country, but I don't think so. It seems to me that there are very few atheists and they don't do much to cause problems.

Radiochemist...that is a dumb question. you will just do anything to draw attention to yopurself! Baal and Zues are False gods and God said to Moses:

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT
You shall have no other gods.

What does this mean?

We should fear, love, and trust in God above all things.

 

[tulpje]

Oh... and the definition of "atheist" is the disbelief of "God" with a capitol "G". The second definition of "god" with a small "g" was "God" with a capitol "G" and the definition was the Christian God.

 

[radiochemist]

>>>Oh... and the definition of "atheist" is the disbelief of "God" with a capitol "G". The
second definition of "god" with a small "g" was "God" with a capitol "G" and the
definition was the Christian God. <<<<<<<

Oh, and who gave that definition? Was it defined by Moses on Mt. Sinai?

 

[tulpje]

My fault because I didn't put a reference down. Oxford encyclopedic dictionary 1996

 

[tulpje]

well then the definition has changed in the past 6 years because that is not what my dictionary says.

 

[Joy]

I understand that there are differences in agnosticism and atheism. To which world view do you hold?

Agnosticism

A. God is unknown, we do not know God.

B. God is unknowable, God can not be known.

C. God and all reality is completely unknowable.

D. God is partially unknowable because man is finite and sinful.

Atheism

A. Traditional atheism- there never was is, or will be a god or God.

B. Mythological- God is a myth that was once believed but is not any longer and is no longer relavant.

C. Dialactic- God was once alive, but he died when Christ was incarnated and crucified. We are just now figuring this out.

D. Semantical- "God-talk" is dead, there is no cognitive meaning to religious language.

(My information is from Geisler)

 

[JohnClay]

Originally posted by post-it:
As a Christian, we say it [hell] is just because God tells us it is just. There is no valid argument for use to claim it is just on any other grounds, which is what you are trying to turn it into.

Ok, so hell seems to be injust from other points of view, but since God said it is just, it must be.

A Nazi-sympathizer had a choice in determining if what people (the state) was doing, was just or not. God doesn't give us a choice, it just is. We accept it, and believe it in order to be a Christian. One wouldn't have to believe it and accept it if he were a Nazi-sympathizer, yet they could still be a Nazi-sympathizer professing such adverse belief.

I thought "Heil Hitler" (part of being a Nazi) means believing what they believe. And I thought Christians just had to repent to be saved - and not necessarily believe that hell is just. I think it is possible to love someone (God) and not see eye to eye about everything. I mean lots of Christians don't bother taking many parts of the Bible very seriously, like not working on the Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) or the NT parts prohibiting divorce and remarriage to other people.

Another fallacy in your argument is that you are assuming an eternal pain in hell, type afterlife. Even if we allowed your (bad) analogy, your argument fails if there were but a sudden death of the spirit (which is what I believe)after ones physical death. It would be a fair choice and certainly no real loss since atheists assume a sudden death anyway. Plus, given an atheist does not love God, who would want to spend eternity with an ex-wife? Isn't that what God is like to you? Loving God now or hating God now will make a difference in what you want after death.

So what happens to non-believers then? Do they have eternal life, or do they get raised up for judgement day and then die again? If they live eternally, is this eternal existence pleasant? I need you to clarify this before I can comment about it.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by excreationist:
I thought "Heil Hitler" (part of being a Nazi) means believing what they believe. And I thought Christians just had to repent to be saved - and not necessarily believe that hell is just.

This response had nothing to do with your past argument or my response.

I think it is possible to love someone (God) and not see eye to eye about everything. I mean lots of Christians don't bother taking many parts of the Bible very seriously, like not working on the Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) or the NT parts prohibiting divorce and remarriage to other people.

Certainly not all Christian take every word or direction to heart. It would be impossible, thus the need for Jesus and forgiveness. However, in other areas such as Divorce, sabbath, etc. some of us interpret that we are no longer under any Law, thus we work toward the law written on our hearts by his words.
Others, such as myself find commands such as Romans 13 that will over ride other older moral laws. I'm a Christian that doesn't believe that homosexuality, nor abortion, nor smoking, nor living together, nor cussing is a sin. Anything that the State law allows is not a sin, anything that is against the State's law is a sin, including speeding. (Here is my full argument on this belief) http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=000554&p=5

I upset a lot of Christians when I get into these beliefs which is to expected, someone here once said if the law allowed pedophiles would that be OK? Sliiiiiiddddding Slope!

But that is what the Holy Spirit has led me to believe according to his Word and the practicality of the matter which happened to match perfectly with God's word and historic events. Interpretation under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit is one of the great things I love about being Baptist.

So what happens to non-believers then? Do they have eternal life, or do they get raised up for judgment day and then die again? If they live eternally, is this eternal existence pleasant? I need you to clarify this before I can comment about it.

Too bad, the scriptures leave a lot to be desired when it comes to actual afterlife of the non-believers. It can be argued with some strength that the non-believer will continue to live in hell in a type of bondage with the knowledge that they are having to wait for final judgment. At the final judgment they will be destroyed as a living entity. No burning, etc. Burning was reserved for Satan, and his demons, beast etc. I address my full belief on this topic in this post (scroll down to my post) http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=24;t=000564;p=

It can also be argued that hell is a state of being, not a physical place but rather a state of existence one's spirit is in. In either case though it is not in the lake of fire.

[ March 26, 2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by excreationist:
I think it is possible to love someone (God) and not see eye to eye about everything. I mean lots of Christians don't bother taking many parts of the Bible very seriously, like not working on the Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) or the NT parts prohibiting divorce and remarriage to other people.
QB]

I Posted this a few threads down. It deals with "Viewpoint" on the Bible. Pleaase read it.

The really, really really tough-questions-with-hard-answers section.
Right off, we need to set the stage. What exactly is a tough question? For some, it might be topical: Homosexuality, abortion, divorce, capital punishment, or taxes, to name a few. For others, it may be more personal: Doubt, death, purpose of life, or how to deal with tragedy. And for still others, the tough questions are about God himself: Who is he? How does he see me? What are his plans for me? Does he involve himself in my life? Does he even exist?
All these questions have one thing in common: Viewpoint. You see, regardless what the question is, or who asks it, we're all sinners. Because of our sin, we're unable to see God's will clearly. Yet God's will can be determined. How? By asking him. He's told us all he wants us to know as his people by giving us his Word; namely, the Bible. It is from the Bible that all these tough questions are answered.
Does this mean we're making light of your tough questions? Not at all! They are just as hard for us as for you, for we are all sinners. And for as tough as the questions are, the answers are even tougher for our sinful nature to accept. It is only by the grace of God - literally - that we are both given the answers and the ability to understand them. And it is God's love for us - shown in its fulfilled completeness through his Son, our Savior Jesus Christ - that gives us the faith to not only accept his good and gracious will but to revel in it.
So as you continue reading, we hope you will feel the burn of God's law in the questions but also the eternal comfort of his love in the answers.
http://www.wels.net/sab/frm-dir.html

 

[JohnClay]

post-it:

A Nazi-sympathizer had a choice in determining if what people (the state) was doing, was just or not....One wouldn't have to believe it and accept it if he were a Nazi-sympathizer, yet they could still be a Nazi-sympathizer professing such adverse belief.

I thought "Heil Hitler" (part of being a Nazi) means believing what they believe.

God doesn't give us a choice, it just is. We accept it, and believe it in order to be a Christian.

And I thought Christians just had to repent to be saved - and not necessarily believe that hell is just.

This response had nothing to do with your past argument or my response.

Well I was saying that Nazi's follow their party's creator - Hitler. It wasn't democratic at all. Hitler originally was in charge of propaganda for the party, and then he became a dictator of it. Since Hitler says that Jews should be exterminated, it is also the opinion of the Nazis. Being anti-semetic was one of the main things that defined the Nazi party.
So basically if you're a Nazi, you have to believe that exterminating the Jews is just since that is a central part of what the Nazi's stand for. But on the other hand, I thought Christianity is more about love so Christians mightn't have to believe that eternal torment is just. Many Christians (like you) don't even believe in eternal torment at all.

...Anything that the State law allows is not a sin, anything that is against the State's law is a sin, including speeding. (Here is my full argument on this belief)...

So is it impossible for laws to be immoral or unfair then? What about in Nazi Germany? What if the Nazi government ordered people to betray all Jews, gays, communists, traitors, etc?
In some places like my state in Australia, brothels are legal - does this mean it isn't a sin for people to visit them? (Apparently 75% of the patrons are married men)
I'd be interested to hear what you think...

I'll try and get around to posting on the hell thread...

 

[JohnClay]

tulpje:
The Bible doesn't seem to give very clear answers since so many Christians disagree about it in regard to issues (homosexuality, abortion, etc). And even with the holy spirit (assuming it exists), they still disagree over things. I guess the holy spirit send out very mixed messages or people are notorious bad at tuning in.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

As is the custom in this forum, I will close this thread at page 8. As always, if there are any issues left unresolved, please feel free to open a new topic to pursue your discussion.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by excreationist:
tulpje:
The Bible doesn't seem to give very clear answers since so many Christians disagree about it in regard to issues (homosexuality, abortion, etc). And even with the holy spirit (assuming it exists), they still disagree over things. I guess the holy spirit send out very mixed messages or people are notorious bad at tuning in.

I think that the author was saying that there is only one answer, God has given it to us, through our sin, however, we fail to understand it. we understand it through God's grace.

Do you understand what grace is? and yes, the Holy Spirit does exist. He exists in my heart, I know for sure!

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by excreationist:

Well I was saying that Nazi's follow their party's creator - Hitler. It wasn't democratic at all. Hitler originally was in charge of propaganda for the party, and then he became a dictator of it. Since Hitler says that Jews should be exterminated, it is also the opinion of the Nazis. Being anti-semetic was one of the main things that defined the Nazi party.
So basically if you're a Nazi, you have to believe that exterminating the Jews is just since that is a central part of what the Nazi's stand for. But on the other hand, I thought Christianity is more about love so Christians mightn't have to believe that eternal torment is just. Many Christians (like you) don't even believe in eternal torment at all.

I can at times, follow what I find is unjust and unfair or even stupid.

If I choose to be a believer of a certain religion or citizen of a certain State/Country, then I will follow the rules of that Authority. I follow Gods Words first which dictates my moral choices, behavior and belief. Part of those words from the Bible is that I put the State’s/Countries authority above any other law or moral dictate, including the Bible’s older laws .

On the other hand, if I can’t do something the State mandates I do… such as kill babies with no viable reason, I would have to leave that country and indeed become its enemy. To stay and kill babies, would not be a sin, as in that case, God is ordaining the action. I would in fact, be sinning by leaving which I would do and it would be through Jesus’ forgiveness that I could leave (sin) and still be saved. If the State does something I can’t live with I would have to fight against it as an enemy. As long as I am doing so under the Authority of another State/Country, then I would be justified and it not be a sin. If that war included killing people in that country, it would not be a sin. If there are babies that would be killed in that country due to my direct actions in a ware, that would not be a sin either. I could morally justify the deaths of a few to save the many.

The Nazi’s were used and allowed in position by God not Hitler. The followers of Nazi, did their Godly duty to follow their Authority which was God’s authority. Killing of the millions of Jews was allowed at the demand of Original Sin. Looking at the results of that horrific episode in history, we find the State of Israel, having come into existence. There are untold things that are good that resulted from the Nazi’s. There is also the bad side. There is a Grand Plan which God knows and told us about in the Bible. Some like you don’t understand why God’s plan includes so much death and destruction. I look at it as God’s plan B. Since we as Man, failed at Plan A it caused the necessity for death and destruction to have to be part of our world. God is having to work with our original sin (choice) now. We can’t blame God, we can’t blame anyone. It is up to us to work to do our best under the twisted situation of original sin. He gave us a way, his name is Jesus.

So is it impossible for laws to be immoral or unfair then? What about in Nazi Germany? What if the Nazi government ordered people to betray all Jews, gays, communists, traitors, etc?
In some places like my state in Australia, brothels are legal - does this mean it isn't a sin for people to visit them? (Apparently 75% of the patrons are married men)

By now you must realize I don’t believe in immoral laws having existence. If it is not a sin, how could it be immoral? Unwise, stupid,… maybe but not a sin. This is why I can live with my fellow citizens and not judge them or separate from them. They have their own inner demons to deal with if they choose to do something that hurts them or their marriage.

What is acceptable by law and what is the right thing for an individual to do are two different things, because our law says abortion is legal, I can talk with someone who had an abortion without having any personal judgments against this person, I find they are having to carry the memory of not having that baby for the rest of their lives, some wrecked with guilt to the point their lives are a total sham. I tell this to someone who may be thinking of having an abortion instead of telling them that it is murder. There are others who have had it and seem to be ok with it. The question then becomes, are you the type of person that can have an abortion and not have it affect you for the rest of your life? Do you feel guilty already from past events?

Homosexuals: We are only just now understanding it from a medical sense. Our law says it is ok, I’m not gay so I won’t be going that route but I know others who are and I can still share Jesus with them and they don’t have to wondering if they are going to hell or if they should try to stop what is natural for them to do. I, myself smoke a cigar and I don’t feel guilty. I cuss and drink beer, wine or a mixed drink. While these are not sins, I do commit sin on a regular bases as does everyone. We are just forgiven. When the State catches me in a sin, I pay their price, Jesus already paid his price for me.

75% of the married men going to brothels: it is a sin if you have statues against cheating or having cheating in a marriage as grounds for a divorce. That would be a sin. As for single men who go, it is not a sin. I hope their condoms don't break as they could end up with AIDS, or even with condoms working right they could still end up with Herpes or VD Warts etc.My counsel to a single man would follow that while it is not a sin, it could be a life and death situation. It could also result in a lifetime disease. Waiting until marriage is the safest. etc

Most men who visit these places have far more serious problems than the act of going to brothels and having sex, so why make that the issue, when these other problems exists?

[ March 26, 2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[Big John Trapper]

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />WTL:
When you can try and drop your self-righteous dog and pony show...

WTL: In your profile, you state you are a believer. May I ask, a believer of what? (I am not trying to be facetious here, but just asking.)[/b]

Quoting Scripture does not make one self-righteous....accusing those who do post Scriptures of being neo-Nazi's, skinheads, KKK or Aryan Nations fanatics is really, really absurd.
</font>[/QUOTE]Fortunately, however, Kachana did none of the above.

And you know it, too.

The fact that you have the nerve to accuse Kachana of doing so is preposterous. And it is precisely* why you were accused of having a "self-righteous dog and pony show".

 

[JohnClay]

post-it:
Well your kind of Christianity sounds pretty good... I mean you don't think homosexuality is sinful or people suffer eternally in hell.

...Anything that the State law allows is not a sin, anything that is against the State's law is a sin, including speeding. (Here is my full argument on this belief)...

According to that quote, if you have never broken the law in your life (including not breaking any copyright laws), then you've never sinned in your life. But you'd still inherit original sin. (Though some people in the OT were said to be "blameless")
So did Jesus die to forgive people their earthly crimes - most of which they wouldn't have been caught doing?

I can at times, follow what I find is unjust and unfair or even stupid.

So the things that God says are sinful or unsinful (the laws) can be unjust, unfair or stupid?

How do you know if laws are unjust though, if your morality (right and wrong) is defined by the laws?

 

[LadyEagle]

Quoting Scripture does not make one self-righteous....accusing those who do post Scriptures of being neo-Nazi's, skinheads, KKK or Aryan Nations fanatics is really, really absurd.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BJT:
Fortunately, however, Kachana did none of the above.

And you know it, too.

The fact that you have the nerve to accuse Kachana of doing so is preposterous.

Stop lying, BJT. Kachana's post to me was in another thread. My post above you refer to wasn't to Kachana. But there you go again with your attitude and accusations without checking out the facts.

Here is my original post:

And Clint: Here is what Kachana posted to me, & my post wasn't even directed to Kachana, but in reply to the thread regarding a literal hell!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kachana: If you actually believe this should happen to me, I truly, really and honestly see members of the Ku Klux Klan as the nicest, friendliest, most loving and caring individuals in the world compared to you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These kinds of remarks are pitiful & inflammatory, not the basis of good debate or discussion, IMHO, on any board, let alone this one. Perhaps there is more TROLLING going on?

I stand by my quote. There is a lot of TROLLING going on.

 

[Lithopaedion]

On the issue of christians respecting atheists, it depends on doctrine, of course. But I see no way out of this logic if you hold to the premises:

Premise 1: God is all-powerful. He could prevent me from going to Hell. The criteria for preventing me or not preventing me are His.

Premise 2: God's criteria are based on my loyalty to Him - and not, or to a much lesser extent - on how I treat other people. Faith, not works.

Premise 3: I have decided I do not believe in Him. It I cannot have faith.

Premise 4: God created me as I am (my body, my soul) and all the conditions in which I live. He has the power to change any of it.

Premise 5: God is just.

Conclusion 1: Based on premises 1, 2 and 3, I am going to Hell if I die soon.

Conclusion 2: Based on premises 1, 2, 3, and 4,(especially 1 and 4) it is God's fault that I am going to hell. Premise 4 excludes the possibility of "free will" in any meaningful sense.

Conclusion 3: Based on premise 4 and conclusion 2, it is JUST that I am going to Hell. I DESERVE to go to Hell.

Now, how can a anybody respect someone, if they feel that that someone DESERVES hell?

You may answer, "It is not mine to judge" or "I would never tell someone they are going to hell", but by accepting the five premises, as most Baptists do, you ARE judging. You BELIEVE (that is, you are convinced) that I DESERVE eternal damnation. You cannot respect me.

Lithopaedion

 

[LadyEagle]

EagleLives, get a plate, put your words on the plate, and get ready to eat them:

You accused me of 'accusing those who do post Scriptures of being neo-Nazi's, skinheads, KKK or Aryan Nations fanatics'

Where did I accuse you, Kachana? Do you see your name in my post? You are making the same mistake as BJT---my post was not in answer to you...it was to WTL.

Kachana, is your NAME anywhere in the following post? No.

Here is my original post:
posted March 23, 2002 11:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WTL:
When you can try and drop your self-righteous dog and pony show...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WTL: In your profile, you state you are a believer. May I ask, a believer of what? (I am not trying to be facetious here, but just asking.)

Quoting Scripture does not make one self-righteous....accusing those who do post Scriptures of being neo-Nazi's, skinheads, KKK or Aryan Nations fanatics is really, really absurd. Just plain goofy, derogatory and meant to inflame, incite, such as yelling "Fire!" in a crowded public place.

As far as I can tell, no one posted anything about saying someone SHOULD go to hell.....but clearly the Scripture states there is a hell and there are those who are in it now and will go there. The Scripture also states (as I posted in the other thread) that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentence, thus the Free Gift of Salvation through the Blood and Sacrificial Death, Buriel, and Ressurection of Jesus Christ. A free gift & a choice. [/QUOTE]

Kachana & BJT, you aren't reading correctly what was posted. Perhaps you should read what is posted & forget about what YOU INTERPRET is between the lines.

 

[LadyEagle]

So, the question is Can Christians respect atheists?

It is really hard for me to respect anyone, athiest or not, who doesn't tell the truth or who twists the truth or twists my posts around to say something I didn't post...in the manner of TROLLS!

Maybe the question should be asked, can Christians respect trolls????