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Can CoC be considered Christian?

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Jesus had not left the context of false teachers in Mat.7:20 as evidenced by verses 22,23.

Here in 2John 1:10,11 the fruit is doctrine. If they bring wrong doctrine (like JW doctrine) don't even allow them into your house.

Read the book of Jude. The entire book speaks about the fruit of false teachers, and describes that fruit in very vivid terms.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
 

Darron Steele

New Member
2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Jesus had not left the context of false teachers in Mat.7:20 as evidenced by verses 22,23.

Here in 2John 1:10,11 the fruit is doctrine. If they bring wrong doctrine (like JW doctrine) don't even allow them into your house.
I do not see "fruit" in either the KJV or ASV of 2 John.

Read the book of Jude. The entire book speaks about the fruit of false teachers, and describes that fruit in very vivid terms.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Yes; the false teachers are as valueless as trees without fruit. If "fruit" refers to "doctrine" then the false teachers are `without doctrine' but in reality they have false doctrine.

This provides no evidence that "fruit" at Matthew 7:20 refers to "doctrine" and that the translation "deeds" (NBV) is invalid.

I am aware of no translator who would allege Greek underlying "fruit" could be idiomatically translated "doctrine" -- not one. I am aware of none that alleges that Greek underlying "fruit" should be idiomatically translated "doctrine" instead of "deeds" or similar. I quoted one translation that translated Greek underlying ASV "fruit" idiomatically "deeds" (NBV), and there are others that translated similarly.

I said "You find me multiple biblical scholars who know Greek well enough to translate who will corroborate your idea as possible, and I will take your innovation more seriously."

So, where is it? If you do not have it, please simply say so or quietly drop it. I will not press you on it.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I do not see "fruit" in either the KJV or ASV of 2 John.

Yes; the false teachers are as valueless as trees without fruit. If "fruit" refers to "doctrine" then the false teachers are `without doctrine' but in reality they have false doctrine.

This provides no evidence that "fruit" at Matthew 7:20 refers to "doctrine" and that the translation "deeds" (NBV) is invalid.

I am aware of no translator who would allege Greek underlying "fruit" could be idiomatically translated "doctrine" -- not one. I am aware of none that alleges that Greek underlying "fruit" should be idiomatically translated "doctrine" instead of "deeds" or similar. I quoted one translation that translated Greek underlying ASV "fruit" idiomatically "deeds" (NBV), and there are others that translated similarly.

I said "You find me multiple biblical scholars who know Greek well enough to translate who will corroborate your idea as possible, and I will take your innovation more seriously."

So, where is it? If you do not have it, please simply say so or quietly drop it. I will not press you on it.
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:20 arage apo twn karpwn autwn epignwsesqe autouV
karpoV karpos kar-pos'

probably from the base of 726; fruit (as plucked), literally or figuratively:--fruit.
--fruit is its only meaning
--The word does not mean works. Therefore the context determines the meaning.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--This verse brings to mind men like "Benny Hinn."
Their "works" are based on their false doctrine. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees--the false doctrine of the Pharisees.
The prophesied in His name--that is they taught. They led them astray. There wonderful works were a sign that their so-called "doctrines" were of God. We know false teachers because of their doctrine. That is the same way that we know them today. When a JW comes to my door I know them because of their doctrine. The same is true for a Mormon. When I do door-to-door evangelism I know people by their doctrine whether they are saved, simply lost sinners, or actual false teachers that deliberately lead others astray. I know them by their fruits (false doctrine). There are many sincere well-meaning people in this world--people that visit the sick, help their neighbors when in need, go the extra mile for others, etc. Many of them may be caring, loving false teachers. That is not the fruit that we know them by.
My own father is a devout Roman Catholic. His righteous style of living would put most Christians to shame. We know people by their fruit (doctrine) which sends people to hell--and the RCC doctrine does.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Are these genuine questions?

Genuine questions, meaning the kind where you do not already have the answers resolved in your mind.

If they are genuine questions, I will try to answer them. If they are just `springboards' into an argument you want to have, I am not interested.

So, are these genuine questions?

Yes. They are genuine. I've never visited nor knew of anyone in the CoC. I've been to many denominations but this one I've never knew. Now I do know of a CoC just down the Road from me but I don't know any of the congregants. So I don't know what you believe. And some of the liturature I've read regarding the Holy Spirit. Makes me think that CoC believes the Holy Spirit is an operation of God rather than a peron of the Trinity. So you can enlighten me. I know with you I've disagreed about certain things but now here is something I don't know and was wondering about. So if you feel disposed to tell me your theology with regard to this I would be grateful at having to know a little more about CoC. Right now beyond the fact that they don't have instrumental music is mostly the sum of my knowledge and even that; I know there are "liberal CoC" that do.
 

Darron Steele

New Member
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:20 arage apo twn karpwn autwn epignwsesqe autouV

--fruit is its only meaning
--The word does not mean works. Therefore the context determines the meaning.
...
My own father is a devout Roman Catholic. His righteous style of living would put most Christians to shame. We know people by their fruit (doctrine) which sends people to hell--and the RCC doctrine does.
I am aware of no translator who would allege Greek underlying "fruit" could be idiomatically translated "doctrine" -- not one. I am aware of none that alleges that Greek underlying "fruit" should be idiomatically translated "doctrine" instead of "deeds" or similar. I quoted one translation that translated Greek underlying ASV "fruit" idiomatically "deeds" (NBV), and there are others that translated similarly.

I said "You find me multiple biblical scholars who know Greek well enough to translate who will corroborate your idea as possible, and I will take your innovation more seriously."

So, where is it? If you do not have it, please simply say so or quietly drop it. I will not press you on it.
You still have not provided it.

The Greek underlying "fruit" in the ASV of Matthew 7:20 should idiomatically be translated "deeds" (NBV) or similar -- unless you can find me multiple biblical scholars who can translate who will substantiate your new idea.

The idea that you are in a position to second-guess Bible translators and assert a meaning for a Greek term that flies in the face of their work is not realistic.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You still have not provided it.

The Greek underlying "fruit" in the ASV of Matthew 7:20 should idiomatically be translated "deeds" (NBV) or similar -- unless you can find me multiple biblical scholars who can translate who will substantiate your new idea.

The idea that you are in a position to second-guess Bible translators and assert a meaning for a Greek term that flies in the face of their work is not realistic.
I don't compare myself to Bible translators. I have taken some Greek.

In English when a person says "apple" we know what they mean. The word is basic.
"Karpos" also is a very basic word with just one meaning. It means "fruit." It is something one learns in first year Greek, basic Greek vocabulary. It does not mean works "ergos" and its many other synonyms. The words for deeds and works, have a number of synonyms. But fruit is fruit. It cannot be translated deeds. If a translator is translating the word "fruit" as deeds or works, then he is not translating, he is using dynamic equivalency or paraphrasing, which means that he is giving his interpretation of the text rather than translating the text. Thus the reader is being misled as to what the true meaning is.
We are the ones that are commanded "to study to show ourselves approved unto God." But if the translator has already corrupted the text by putting his own ideas into his own translation, one cannot carry out God's command properly. Fruit means fruit and nothing else.
What fruit means in the context is for the reader to determine.
Maybe that particular fruit means figs, apples, prunes; or maybe it means doctrine, or possibly works. It is for the reader to determine through the context what the word means, not for the translator to bungle the job for you. parkos simply means fruit! To translate it any other way is wrong.

Context and other supporting Scripture demonstrates that in this passage the fruit spoken of is doctrine, in particular false doctrine. We know false teachers because of the false doctrine that they propagate.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
I am suprised that the COC is aligned with the JW and MOR. The vast differences can easily be seen.

I would like to know where your quote came from and the source of the website would help. As for the Holy Spirit, He is God, He is just as much the creator as the Father and the Son.

There is one God, the Father the Son, and The Holy Spirit. I have never met anyone in the coc that does not believe in the "Trinity". I am sure there are some out there, but I have yet to meet them.

As for Jesus, I believe that He is the Christ, my Savior and Lord, that He died for me, was buried and was raised from the dead.



Matt Wade wrote:



I would like to hear why you think that the COC cannot be considered Christian.
My source for this statement about modes is here

http://www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/holyspirit.htm
 

Darron Steele

New Member
About whether or not the NBV translation of "deeds" is a valid translation at Matthew 7:20,
I am aware of no translator who would allege Greek underlying "fruit" could be idiomatically translated "doctrine" -- not one. I am aware of none that alleges that Greek underlying "fruit" should be idiomatically translated "doctrine" instead of "deeds" or similar. I quoted one translation that translated Greek underlying ASV "fruit" idiomatically "deeds" (NBV), and there are others that translated similarly.

I said "You find me multiple biblical scholars who know Greek well enough to translate who will corroborate your idea as possible, and I will take your innovation more seriously."

So, where is it? If you do not have it, please simply say so or quietly drop it. I will not press you on it.
You still have not provided it.

The Greek underlying "fruit" in the ASV of Matthew 7:20 should idiomatically be translated "deeds" (NBV) or similar -- unless you can find me multiple biblical scholars who can translate who will substantiate your new idea.

The idea that you are in a position to second-guess Bible translators and assert a meaning for a Greek term that flies in the face of their work is not realistic.
Here is the reply, with emphasis mine:
I don't compare myself to Bible translators. I have taken some Greek.

In English when a person says "apple" we know what they mean. The word is basic.
"Karpos" also is a very basic word with just one meaning. It means "fruit." It is something one learns in first year Greek, basic Greek vocabulary. It does not mean works "ergos" and its many other synonyms. The words for deeds and works, have a number of synonyms. But fruit is fruit. It cannot be translated deeds. If a translator is translating the word "fruit" as deeds or works, then he is not translating, he is using dynamic equivalency or paraphrasing, which means that he is giving his interpretation of the text rather than translating the text. Thus the reader is being misled as to what the true meaning is.

We are the ones that are commanded "to study to show ourselves approved unto God." But if the translator has already corrupted the text by putting his own ideas into his own translation, one cannot carry out God's command properly. Fruit means fruit and nothing else.
What fruit means in the context is for the reader to determine.
Maybe that particular fruit means figs, apples, prunes; or maybe it means doctrine, or possibly works. It is for the reader to determine through the context what the word means, not for the translator to bungle the job for you. parkos simply means fruit! To translate it any other way is wrong.

Context and other supporting Scripture demonstrates that in this passage the fruit spoken of is doctrine, in particular false doctrine. We know false teachers because of the false doctrine that they propagate.
DHK: I do not want to argue with you anymore about this.

You have made a pretty strong accusation here against at least one Bible translator, and Bible translators who have translated the text similarly -- and have admitted your lack of qualifications to do so. It looks like you are getting angry, and I know what often follows when you do.

Fact is, they are Bible translators whose background and training in Greek was sufficient for them to get on translation boards, and have their work published by major companies.

You are not alleging that we are growing literal fruits out of our bodies more than anyone else would allege. To my knowledge, no one, including you, alleges that "fruit" means that we grow apples, oranges, grapes, or some similar thing out of our bodies.

In the face of competent Bible translators, from which you exclude yourself, you claim that it means "doctrine" and that Bible translators corrupt the text when they understand it as "deeds" or similar and not literal "fruit." This is pretty wild to me.

From the day I read that passage until just this last week, I have seen it solely understood to mean things we do. You are the first person I have ever encountered who has alleged that it did not.

The choice you place before me: competent translators, or you who admits lacking such qualifications? I am sorry, DHK, but you are not going to convince me to accept your innovation. Let us agree to disagree and move on.
 

Darron Steele

New Member
Weird. What does the Churches of Christ Teach about the Holy Spirit? Because its based on this that I wonder if they are truely Christian.
In other words does CoC believe this?
Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms. Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another. Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.
Hi Thinkingstuff: I am sorry for the delay. I have been distracted.

The Churches of Christ have no universal teaching of the Holy Spirit. It depends on where you are at -- and in many places, you better be sure you have their view on it.

Some teach that the Holy Spirit is at work in all settings assisting Christians to live faithfully. Others insist that He does nothing except use the text of Scripture to influence Christians.

Some believe in the traditional Trinity and would call it that.

Others believe in a Godhead where God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit all exist -- hence, not modalism. They would not call it the Trinity.

I have encountered no sign of modalism in the Churches of Christ.

Does that help?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
About whether or not the NBV translation of "deeds" is a valid translation at Matthew 7:20, Here is the reply, with emphasis mine DHK: I do not want to argue with you anymore about this.

You have made a pretty strong accusation here against at least one Bible translator, and Bible translators who have translated the text similarly -- and have admitted your lack of qualifications to do so. It looks like you are getting angry, and I know what often follows when you do.

Fact is, they are Bible translators whose background and training in Greek was sufficient for them to get on translation boards, and have their work published by major companies.
Do you worship Bible translations, and/or their translators? I know that there are some KJVO people that might go that far. I didn't know that you might be one of them. Are you willing to admit that there may be mistakes in your revered translation?

I really didn't think I would have to do this. I thought that you could take my word.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits,.... By "fruits" are meant, not so much their external works in life and conversation; for a false prophet may so behave, as not to be discovered thereby. So the Pharisees were outwardly righteous before men; and false teachers among Christians may have the form of godliness, and keep it up, though they are strangers to, and even deny the power of it: but their doctrines are here meant, and the effects of them. When doctrines are contrary to the perfections of God, repugnant to the Scriptures of truth, tend to depreciate the person and offices, blood, righteousness, and sacrifice of Christ, to lessen the glory of God's grace, to exalt the creature, and to fill men's minds with notions of the purity, self-sufficiency, and ability of human nature; when they are calculated to feed the pride and vanity of men, to get money, and gain applause, to serve their own interests, and gratify men's lusts and passions, they may be easily discerned who they are, and from whence they come. The Jews have a proverb pretty much like this (u), בוצין מקטפיה ידיע, "a gourd is known by its branches". The gloss upon it is,

"it is, as if it was said, from the time it buds forth, and goes out of the branch, it is known whether it is good or not;''

i.e. the goodness of the gourd is known by the fruit its branches bear. So a good preacher is known by the good doctrine he brings, and a bad one, by his unsound doctrine. Christ is not speaking of these false prophets, as men, or as private professors of religion, but as prophets, or teachers. "Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" Grapes and figs were common fruit; there was great plenty of them in Judea; we often read of the "gathering" of them. It is a matter in dispute with the doctors (w),

"if a man intends ללקט תאנים ולוקט ענבים, "to gather figs, and he gathers grapes", black ones, and he gathers white ones, white ones, and he gathers black ones, whether he is guilty of a sin offering or not.''

One says he is, another says he is not. These words of Christ put me in mind of another passage, which seems to speak of grapes of thorns (x);

"he that marries his daughter to a scholar, it is like to grapes of the vine, with grapes of the vine, a thing beautiful and acceptable; but he that marries his daughter to a plebeian, it is like to grapes of the vine, הסנה בענבי, "with grapes of the thorn", a thing ugly, and unacceptable.''

Though ענבי, in the last sentence, must be taken for berries which grow on some thorn bushes, and not what are properly grapes; for grapes do not grow upon, and are not to be gathered from thorns, and bramble bushes. The meaning of our Lord is, that from the false doctrines of men comes no good fruit of faith, holiness, joy, peace, and comfort. Their doctrines are like "thorns", which prick and pierce, give pain and uneasiness; and, like "thistles", choke, and are unprofitable, afford no solid food and nourishment; yea, their words eat as do a canker, are contrary to vital religion and powerful godliness. This sense I prefer; because, on the one hand, it is possible for a false teacher to do works, which may be externally good; though indeed no good works, properly speaking, can be performed by an unregenerate man, because he has neither good principles to act from, nor good ends in view: and, on the other hand, a man who is destitute of the grace of God, and lives ill, may yet have right notions of the Gospel, though he has no experimental knowledge and relish of it; but where false doctrines are imbibed, and propagated, no good fruit can follow upon it.
Gill is a prominent Baptist theologian who is the author of the above quote.
There are many more quotes that I can give you if you so desire. But, really, you can do your own homework if you just study a bit.
 

Darron Steele

New Member
DHK: Your quote did not provide what I called on you for: a theologian is not a Greek scholar competent enough to translate. You still have not provided one to corroborate your inventive idea; in fact, this theologian did not either. Further, I saw Chaldaic letters, not Greek. Matthew 7 was written in Greek.

I doubt that matters in light of your comment here:
Do you worship Bible translations, and/or their translators? ....
Yep; you were getting angry. You have started on the next step: you have turned nasty and just spouted off something wild.

I am done arguing with you about Matthew 7.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I doubt that matters in light of your comment here:
Yep; you were getting angry. You have started on the next step: you have turned nasty and just spouted off something wild.

I am done arguing with you about Matthew 7.
I'm not angry. See the folly of your position. It is the same as a radical KJVO. "My position is right because my translation is right." (i.e. it is inspired and infallible--without error). This is how you come across. You give no room for the possibility of error in your translation, even though the word means "fruit" and has no other translation but fruit. One does not have to be a Greek scholar to know that. A basic knowledge of Greek can tell you that.

Let me give you another example (I have studied five languages).
pomme de terre means potato in French. It has no other meaning. If you want to give it a figurative meaning that is up to you. But the word means potato.

You are trying to give the word "fruit" a figurative meaning. It has one meaning--fruit. Why are you trying to change the meaning to fit your own theology. That is dishonest.
 

Darron Steele

New Member
You give no room for the possibility of error in your translation
Huh? That is nuts.
... Why are you trying to change the meaning to fit your own theology. That is dishonest.
No more false accusations or personal attacks.

You have not been convincing, and I have told you I am done arguing with you about this. I have asked you to drop this more than once.

I did not start this exchange with you; you posted to me. I was not convinced by you. That I have not been convinced by you does not mean that I deserve to be treated like this.

Enough of the `extracurricular activity,' please.

You are a moderator; please hold yourself to standards befitting one.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Fact is, they are Bible translators whose background and training in Greek was sufficient for them to get on translation boards, and have their work published by major companies.
And many are wrong.
[/quote]
Translations are made by fallible men that make mistakes.

karpos is a Greek word that means fruit. It is used 66 times in the NT. In the the KJV it is translated "fruit" each and every time.
The translation you referred to did not translate the word but used dynamic equivalency to the extent as to what he thought the word should mean. That is bias on the part of a translator. It is wrong.
 

Plain Old Bill

New Member
I thought the CoC was cultic because it believed you had to be baptized to be saved and that you had to be a member of the Coc as no other churches are valid.

I could be wrong but that's the story I get.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I thought the CoC was cultic because it believed you had to be baptized to be saved and that you had to be a member of the Coc as no other churches are valid.

I could be wrong but that's the story I get.
That is pretty much the gist of it.
 

JSM17

New Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plain Old Bill
I thought the CoC was cultic because it believed you had to be baptized to be saved and that you had to be a member of the Coc as no other churches are valid.

I could be wrong but that's the story I get.

That is pretty much the gist of it.

Mark 16:16 (New American Standard Bible)

16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Christ said one must be baptized in order to be saved.

Matt.16:18
18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Christ said He would build His church, not a bunch on denomination, divided over issues that He did not authorize.

Romans 16:16
All the churches of Christ greet you.
 

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
Hi Thinkingstuff: I am sorry for the delay. I have been distracted.

The Churches of Christ have no universal teaching of the Holy Spirit. It depends on where you are at -- and in many places, you better be sure you have their view on it.

Some teach that the Holy Spirit is at work in all settings assisting Christians to live faithfully. Others insist that He does nothing except use the text of Scripture to influence Christians.

Some believe in the traditional Trinity and would call it that.

Others believe in a Godhead where God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit all exist -- hence, not modalism. They would not call it the Trinity.

I have encountered no sign of modalism in the Churches of Christ.

Does that help?
Yes thanks.
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
Mark 16:16 (New American Standard Bible)

16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Christ said one must be baptized in order to be saved.

Matt.16:18
18"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Christ said He would build His church, not a bunch on denomination, divided over issues that He did not authorize.

Romans 16:16
All the churches of Christ greet you.
JSM17: I was raised an Independent Fundamental Baptist...about 6 years ago an adult Sunday school class my wife and I attended did a study called "Why I'm a Baptist"...to make a long story short, it was revealed to the class, some knew and some didn't, that our type of Church was the NT Church...that we weren't "Protestant", but was forced "underground" by the Catholic Church, and we all got our copy of "The Trail of Blood" by Carroll.

For me, as much as I REALLY wanted this to be true, the class presented more questions than answers. I needed something more concrete than the Trail of Blood as evidence, and sadly none could be found. Without even knowing who the Early Church Fathers were, I needed primary sources, just as the Apostles wrote their Epistles, I knew there had to be some record of men who knew the Apostles and when I went asking these hard questions, I got the same 'ol Romaphobic answer.

Of course, the above was just the start, I also began questioning the multitude of Protestant Denominations.

So yourself, as a Church of Christ member, what evidence do you have to prove that your Church is the NT Church of the Apostles?

In XC
-
 
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