Can Exodus 32:33 Ever Refer to Believers?

[Darrell C]

What is a possibility for Jewish Christians, is also the same for Gentile Christians. Just because the Book of Hebrews is written to Jewish believers in the first place, does NOT mean that it is ONLY to them. Otherwise it should not be in the "Christian" Bible, as it has no bearing for the greater majority of believers. the WHOLE Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is for ALL those who are truly born-again, as "ALL Scripture is Inspired by God..."

I ask you again...


Hebrews 10:28-29
King James Version (KJV)

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Are you really blind to the fact that unbelievers are in view here? Those who rejected the Covenant of Law (v.28), and those who reject the New Covenant, Christ, His Sacrifice, and the ministry of the Spirit of God by which the truth of the Gospel is made known to the natural man?

If you have a better understanding, let's hear it.


You yourself have admitted they are unbelievers, which is quite evident in the text. They have...

1. Rejected Christ, the Son of God;
2. Rejected His Sacrifice;
3. Rejected the New Covenant (which the Writer contrasts with the Covenant of Law, not only in the preceding verse here, but throughout the Book);
4. Rejected the Ministry of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Grace, the Comforter, Who ministers to the Lost in order to enlighten their minds to the truth that they might be saved.

And they have "done despite unto Him."

So step up. Explain why this doesn't contrast those who rejected God's will in the Old Testament, and those rejecting His will today?

Stop deluding yourself...


God bless.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

No it isn't.
As a gentile, I have no option to return to the OT Law and make the required offerings at the Temple ... I would be allowed no further than the Outer Court (if the Temple still existed). I can pretend that God made a covenent with my Fathers on Mount Horeb, but it will never be true.

You are completely ignoring the Hebrews 3 context of the Exodus in everything that is being said. So which of the following is more like the people who left Egypt and died in the desert without reaching the promised land:

1. Gentiles who believe for a while, but fall away into disbelief.
2. Jews who start to follow the New Covenent, but return to the Old Covenent.

A Gentile Christian does not have the option to return to the Law of Moses. However, the fact that Paul is using Old Testament references to warn ALL Christians, is because what the Jewish believers did in the OT, the believers can do in the NT. Are you suggesting, that verse 1 of Chapter 3, only refers to Jewish believers? If so, then show this from the context. here is what Paul wrote;

"Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession"

The OT, Paul tells use elsewhere, is used as an example to us under the NT. His Books, like Romans, Galatians and Hebrews, are full of OT references, because it ALL matters. If the Jews who were "born-again", could return to their old life, then the same can indeed happen to ALL believers. Verse 12 again,

"Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God"

No evidence that this is not for ALL believers. Only one's "theology" will restrict what the Bible says.

 

[atpollard]

Verse 12 again,

"Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God"

No evidence that this is not for ALL believers. Only one's "theology" will restrict what the Bible says.

Context also restricts what any particular Bible verse says. What was the context surrounding Hebrews 3:12 again?

The danger of ignoring context:
Matthew 27:5 ... and he went away and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37 ... Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Context also restricts what any particular Bible verse says. What was the context surrounding Hebrews 3:12 again?

The danger of ignoring context:
Matthew 27:5 ... and he went away and hanged himself.
Luke 10:37 ... Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

I have said all that I can on this. you must be either a Calvinist or Reformed

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually it isn't Dispensational teaching, it is Biblical Teaching. I can't help it if Dispensationalists get it right more often than the men you follow.

I also believe in the Trinity, does that mean I am Catholic?

The Body of Christ did not replace Israel, that is evident:


Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


So what happens then? The Church will no longer be this spiritual Israel you speak of?

No, Israel will be, as a physical Nation...saved. They will enter into the Millennial Kingdom.


God bless.

The good news is that we are still one in Christ, but I would still see the Church as being spiritual israel for now, but that national israel will also be blessed at time of the second coming of Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

I have said all that I can on this. you must be either a Calvinist or Reformed

Which would be a good thing!

 

[atpollard]

I have said all that I can on this. you must be either a Calvinist or Reformed

While I happen to be a Reformed Baptist (and a 5 point Calvinist in sotierology), I almost want to take exception with your comment on behalf of all the Wesleyan Arminians who would also recognize the importance of reading scripture in context rather than ripping verses out of context to say whatever you want them to say. Exegesis does not belong exclusively to Calvinism, it is essential for anyone who wishes to understand what a verse actually means.

 

[Felipe Rios]

"But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot out of My book"

Can this passage of rebellion against the Lord God of the Bible, which is a "great sin", ever refer to someone who is a born-again believer?

Hebrews 3:12 has another interesting verse of believers;

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God"

Where "departing" is from the Greek, "ἀφίστημι", which is used for "to revolt, depart from, become apostate, fall away"

As does 1 John 5:16-17, again to believers;

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

And other verses

Well I believe this book is a reference to the Book of the Living which is not the same as the Book of Life.

 

[Yeshua1]

While I happen to be a Reformed Baptist (and a 5 point Calvinist in sotierology), I almost want to take exception with your comment on behalf of all the Wesleyan Arminians who would also recognize the importance of reading scripture in context rather than ripping verses out of context to say whatever you want them to say. Exegesis does not belong exclusively to Calvinism, it is essential for anyone who wishes to understand what a verse actually means.

I think John Wesley and George Whitefield disagreed big time on their sotierology, but both respected how the Lord used both of them in his work!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Which would be a good thing!

 

[Darrell C]

The good news is that we are still one in Christ, but I would still see the Church as being spiritual israel for now,

The idea behind "Spiritual Israel" and being a "spiritual Jew" is not a matter of nationality but a matter of being obedient to God's Will. Someone of Israel who was not was not "spiritually" a Jew. Someone not of Israel Who obeys God performs that which was God's intent in creating Israel as a people.

We are not Spiritual Israel, we are the Church, the Body of Christ, and we are made up of both Jew and Gentile, both becoming the new man:


Galatians 3:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Colossians 3:9-11
King James Version (KJV)

9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

but that national israel will also be blessed at time of the second coming of Christ!

Prophecy guarantees this.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

A Gentile Christian does not have the option to return to the Law of Moses.

That's the entire point.

You said...

What is a possibility for Jewish Christians, is also the same for Gentile Christians.

...and the simple fact is that turning from a relationship with God through the Covenant of Law cannot be replicated by Gentile Christians. Only those who were actually in relationship with God through the Covenant of Israel can turn from that Covenant to the New Covenant. The Covenant of Law is no longer a valid means of relationship, and hasn't been since the First Century.

Yet you go on to say...

However, the fact that Paul is using Old Testament references to warn ALL Christians, is because what the Jewish believers did in the OT, the believers can do in the NT

No, not all of it can be replicated by "all Christians."

What can be replicated is being an unbeliever like those in the Wilderness:


Hebrews 3:18-19
King James Version (KJV)

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Yet you try to make these...believers.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Are you suggesting, that verse 1 of Chapter 3, only refers to Jewish believers?

Not at all, Gentile believers can benefit from the Book of Hebrews as well.

That doesn't change the fact that it was written to Hebrews and the Book has to be interpreted with that in mind. When it was written, it was not written to Gentiles.


Hebrews 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

If so, then show this from the context. here is what Paul wrote;

Why do you demand it be shown from the context. I have shown you numerous errors you make and you ignore them and continue to preach your false gospel.

Nevertheless, we do see in the context that in view...are unbelievers:


Hebrews 3
King James Version (KJV)


5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Right there he establishes what defines actually being of the House of Christ.

Understand?

Now, He enters into the warning which is based on the premise of not holding fast the confidence and rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end:


7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.


See that "wherefore?" It is linked to the "if" of v.6.

And what he does is show why those in the Wilderness did not enter rest, and the warning is why one would not enter rest in the writer's day, seen in v.12...

...having an evil heart of unbelief. Not being a believer then sinning, but simply being an unbeliever.

He reiterates why they didn't enter rest...


Hebrews 3:18-19
King James Version (KJV)

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


He will do this again in Chapter 4:


Hebrews 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


There is no "we" in v.1, it is "any of you, who are his Hebrew brethren.

The good news of rest to Israel did not profit them because...they did not have faith.

We which do believe...do enter in the Rest Christ provides.

The only ones in danger of not entering into His Rest are those who have an evil heart of unbelief.

And I will point out the "promise being left us" is defined as the Promise made to Israel, not to Christians (who have already entered into His Rest through faith and belief):


Hebrews 4:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.


Israel is the "people of God" here, not Christians.

"Jesus" in v.8 is not speaking about Christ, it is speaking of Joshua.

You, like all who teach loss of salvation...always make those clearly identified as unbelievers to be Christians. You can't do it here, just as you can't do it in Chapter 10.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

here is what Paul wrote;

"Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession"

And...?


Hebrews 3
King James Version (KJV)

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


"We are of Christ's House...if..."

The OT, Paul tells use elsewhere, is used as an example to us under the NT. His Books, like Romans, Galatians and Hebrews, are full of OT references, because it ALL matters.

Not to you.

You are making it up as you go, ignoring anything that denies your false gospel.

If the Jews who were "born-again", could return to their old life, then the same can indeed happen to ALL believers.

Nowhere do we see anyone who is born again in danger of becoming dead again.

You need to learn what it means to be born again.

Verse 12 again,

"Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God"

Hmm, a believer with an evil heart of unbelief.

That's a great theology you are constructing there Sorta.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

No evidence that this is not for ALL believers. Only one's "theology" will restrict what the Bible says.

You are the perfect example of how true this is.


I ask you again...


Hebrews 10:28-29
King James Version (KJV)

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Are you really blind to the fact that unbelievers are in view here? Those who rejected the Covenant of Law (v.28), and those who reject the New Covenant, Christ, His Sacrifice, and the ministry of the Spirit of God by which the truth of the Gospel is made known to the natural man?

If you have a better understanding, let's hear it.


You yourself have admitted they are unbelievers, which is quite evident in the text. They have...

1. Rejected Christ, the Son of God;
2. Rejected His Sacrifice;
3. Rejected the New Covenant (which the Writer contrasts with the Covenant of Law, not only in the preceding verse here, but throughout the Book);
4. Rejected the Ministry of the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Grace, the Comforter, Who ministers to the Lost in order to enlighten their minds to the truth that they might be saved.

And they have "done despite unto Him."

So step up. Explain why this doesn't contrast those who rejected God's will in the Old Testament, and those rejecting His will today?

Stop deluding yourself...


God bless.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Well I believe this book is a reference to the Book of the Living which is not the same as the Book of Life.

can you show the difference from Scripture?

 

[atpollard]

"And it shall come to pass that everyone whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
(Acts 2:21)

[Act 2:21 NASB] 21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE[G3956] WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

[G3956]
1. masculine and feminine every one, any one: in the singular, without any addition, Mark 9:49; Luke 16:16; Hebrews 2:9; followed by a relative pronoun, πᾶς ὅστις, Matthew 7:24; Matthew 10:32; πᾶς ὅς, Matthew 19:29 (L T Tr WH ὅστις); Galatians 3:10; πᾶς ὅς ἄν (ἐάν Tr WH), whosoever, Acts 2:21; πᾶς ἐξ ὑμῶν ὅς, Luke 14:33;​

[Mat 7:24 NASB] 24 "Therefore everyone[G3956] who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

[Mat 10:32 NASB] 32 "Therefore everyone[G3956] who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

[Mat 19:29 NASB] 29 "And everyone[G3956] who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

[Mar 9:49 NASB] 49 "For everyone[G3956] will be salted with fire.

[Luk 14:33 NASB] 33 "So then, none[G3956] of you can be My disciple who does not give up all[G3956] his own possessions.

[Luk 16:16 NASB] 16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone[G3956] is forcing his way into it.

[Heb 2:9 NASB] 9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.[G3956]

[Gal 3:10 NASB] 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE[G3956] WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL[G3956] THINGS[G3956] WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Interesting that the 'everyone' in Acts 2:21 is closely related to the use of the same word in Galatians 3:10 and Luke 14:33.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

"And it shall come to pass that everyone whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
(Acts 2:21)

[Act 2:21 NASB] 21 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE[G3956] WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

[G3956]
1. masculine and feminine every one, any one: in the singular, without any addition, Mark 9:49; Luke 16:16; Hebrews 2:9; followed by a relative pronoun, πᾶς ὅστις, Matthew 7:24; Matthew 10:32; πᾶς ὅς, Matthew 19:29 (L T Tr WH ὅστις); Galatians 3:10; πᾶς ὅς ἄν (ἐάν Tr WH), whosoever, Acts 2:21; πᾶς ἐξ ὑμῶν ὅς, Luke 14:33;​

[Mat 7:24 NASB] 24 "Therefore everyone[G3956] who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

[Mat 10:32 NASB] 32 "Therefore everyone[G3956] who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.

[Mat 19:29 NASB] 29 "And everyone[G3956] who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

[Mar 9:49 NASB] 49 "For everyone[G3956] will be salted with fire.

[Luk 14:33 NASB] 33 "So then, none[G3956] of you can be My disciple who does not give up all[G3956] his own possessions.

[Luk 16:16 NASB] 16 "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone[G3956] is forcing his way into it.

[Heb 2:9 NASB] 9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.[G3956]

[Gal 3:10 NASB] 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE[G3956] WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL[G3956] THINGS[G3956] WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Interesting that the 'everyone' in Acts 2:21 is closely related to the use of the same word in Galatians 3:10 and Luke 14:33.

Indeed, the whole human race! Praise the Good Lord!!!

 

[Yeshua1]

The true heirs of Abraham, and spiritual israel, would those of like faith as he had per God and His promises, both Jews and Gentiles!

 

[JonShaff]

God initiated His covenant to us, The Body of Christ--the Bride of Christ, Through His Son Jesus Christ...and Fulfills His Covenant through Christ in Us.

Christ is the Obedient Servant--it's all about Christ--Christ in us, through us, for us. He is the Author and Finisher of Our Faith.