Can God actually change His mind?

But you miss the truth. Atonement is for sin, humans sin, therefore anyone who accepts the Christ actually receives all of the benefits of accepting the Christ which as Paul says is "receiving the atonement".

The Atonement for sin, covers ALL sins, but those sinners who do not accept the Christ, by default deny the atonement too, even though their sins are likewise atoned! It is not the atonement of sin that saves anyone from the second death (Rev 20:14,15), for all sins have been atoned. It is one's acceptance of the Christ as Paul points out, that saves one from the second death. Remember Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:18, that those who believe in the Son are not judged, but those who believe not are judged already by their unbelief! We are told in another scripture that those who believe pass from death (the first death) into Life everlasting. So the consistancy of scripture is that Because of the atonement of sin, no one needs to die the second death, but only those who have faith in God, are sanctified (separated from the goats) and Saved from the second death!

 

Not atonement - "reconciliation".

 

Romans 5 argues that the SCOPE of the solution exactly matches teh SCOPE of the problem.

ALL mankind fell - ALL mankind need a Savior.

Have you noticed that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Is this Calvinist Vacation week?

 

Romans 5:19 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the MANY will be made righteous.

I love chapter 5 !

 

they're prolly out soulwinning instead of arguing with the arminians. </font>[/QUOTE]Good response......if true!

 

RC, if you knew any Greek yourself, then you will see that your argument above is nonsense. When Paul writes, "for as one mans disobedience, many were made sinners..." (Romans 5:19), did he mean that the whole human race did not sin in Adam? You say, "many" isn't "all"

How about you dealing with this one then?

 

Hello icthus.

Jesus is a man and He didn't sin.
Eve had already sinned so you can scratch the all in Adam.

john.

 

Wes.

The atonement was meant only for Israel. No other people can benefit from it. If you are not part of true Israel the atonement does not affect you, you have not been chosen you go to Hell.

And what does 'at one' mean if it don't mean reconciliation?

RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

EX 28:9 "Take two onyx stones and engrave on them the names of the sons of Israel 10 in the order of their birth--six names on one stone and the remaining six on the other. 11 Engrave the names of the sons of Israel on the two stones the way a gem cutter engraves a seal. Then mount the stones in gold filigree settings 12 and fasten them on the shoulder pieces of the ephod as memorial stones for the sons of Israel. Aaron is to bear the names on his shoulders as a memorial before the LORD.
Aaron a type of Jesus. He stands before His Father with my name engraved on Him as a memorial. He will remember me. There is a memorial in front of His face about me.
These were carried into the tent of the meeting at the atonement and only the names of Israel went in and were made at one with the Lord. Those He chose. His chosen nation, His Royal Priesthood.

Your turn.

john.

 

Jesus is a man and He didn't sin.
Eve had already sinned so you can scratch the all in Adam.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]What complete nonsense. Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man, and was not able to sin. Get your facts right

 

Not a very convincing comment John P.

If only true Israel is atoned for, why don't scriptures state that?

Why does Paul waste so much effort in explaining atonement to those who are not true Israel?

Why does Paul explain to those dreaded Romans who were still occupying Israel at his writing of the book of Romans, That All have sinned, including those Romans.

Why does Paul explain to them that the wage for sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life?

What gift is Paul speaking of? Is it a gift to the Romans? If not, why tell them about it?

Boy, I sure wish that I could rely on your prophesy that I am not chosen to go to hell, but I don't trust your judgement, you are thinking like a Pharisee.

 

What facts did I get wrong icthus?
I only used a few facts. 1. Jesus is a man from Adam or He is not a man and He did not sin. 2. Eve was not in Adam as we were when she sinned so it's 'many' not 'all'.

That, as far as you are concerned, is complete nonsense. Get me facts right? You correct me not just publish I'm wrong.

john.

 

Wes.

Why not was that only Moses that said it?

It does. It says that only the twelve tribes benefitted from the atonement but it was only Moses that said it.

Because all have sinned but Jesus.

Because the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life.

Eternal life. It's is a gift? (is it?) It is a gift and Paul is speaking to the sheep so that they know and wrath is stored up by those who reject it.

I did not prophesy any such thing about you but gave you the message. If you are one of the sheep you will hear and if you are not you store up more wrath and take that to Hell with you.

The message is clear, "Whoever believes will have everlasting life".
To believe that people go to Hell with their sins forgiven would be an abomination if it was not so silly. As it is it is just silly.

john.

 

Because all have sinned but Jesus.</font>[/QUOTE]Well if as you say all have sinned, and if as scriptures say, the wage for sin is death, and if the Atonement applies only to "true Israel", then evangelizing those who are not "true Israel" is a fraudulent act, and scriptures tell us that Fraud's cannot enter heaven. So all who evangelize, fraudulently giving false hope to those who are not "True Israel" cannot enter heaven. Since you are an evangelizing "true Israelite", beware lest ye not enter into heaven yourself because a gentile dog heard what you said and believed when it was not for him to believe. Woe unto you for fraudulently evangelizing.

 

Eternal life. It's is a gift? (is it?) It is a gift and Paul is speaking to the sheep so that they know and wrath is stored up by those who reject it.</font>[/QUOTE]Were these Roman's Paul was addressing whom you call the sheep, of Italian genealogy, or were they dispersed Jews?
Which would make Paul's writing to them what you say it is. What proof do you offer? Wasn't Paul the apostle to the "gentiles" whomever they may be and wherever they may be?

By the way, how did the Romans get to be sheep? Oh, I forget, they are the elect....right! Hogwash, they are the "Whosoever's" that hear the word of God and believe unto salvation.

 

Hello Wes.

But Jesus.

No one evangelises the non-elect do they? Isn't the message, "Whoever believes?"
It would become a fraudulent act if the evangelist told a person that Christ died for them when in fact that person is not chosen, that is off message. The offer is made to those who believe whoever they are. I believe Christ died for my sins means I am saved.

Fraud would need to be known before it is fraud. Mistakes are made and if fraud is a sin then my Lord paid the penalty did He not? So how do you say a fraudster would not enter Heaven? If he believes how is that sin not paid for?

I have never told a person that Christ died for them and if a dog was to hear it and believe Christ died for his sins then he will be a brother sheep would he not? Lost and found.

Make the effort Wes and see that I am saying the sheep are the dispersed Jews not those circumcised in the flesh but those marked to be circumcised in the heart.

What proof of what? Proof that he was an apostle for the faith of God's elect?

Yes the gentiles as opposed to the Jews. In the flesh.
TIT 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness--

Quite right old chap. John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

john.

 

Fraud would need to be known before it is fraud. Mistakes are made and if fraud is a sin then my Lord paid the penalty did He not? So how do you say a fraudster would not enter Heaven? If he believes how is that sin not paid for?</font>[/QUOTE]Those who "know better" but continue sinning, even though their sins are atoned, have made of themselves the sins they love. That is a sexually immoral person who comes to faith in God, but does not repent from being sexually immoral, will not enter heaven, because He/she is by category a sexually immoral person, and Paul tells us that the sexually immoral cannot enter heaven. A fraud who comes to faith in God, but does not repent from his fraudulence, remains a fraud doing fraudulent acts, and will not enter heaven.

So, in your theology, if preaching to those who are not the elect, causes a non "True Israelite" who cannot be saved, to believe, then the preacher who is "a True Israelite" has committed a fraudulent act, and if this continues, the True Israelite remains a Fraud, and cannot enter heaven.

On the other hand, if a non "True Israelite", becomes a believer, and because of his/her belief gets saved! Then you have TRUE CHRISTIANITY! Because that is what the Christ taught!

If the fraud, believes AND REPENTS then because his/her sins are atoned, he/she receives everlasting life. It is Faith of the repentent sinner, that gets he/she into heaven. But if one is not repentent, there is no evidence of faith!