Can God actually change His mind?

Hello Wes.

Wow!

Pelagianism becomes you.

Their sins are not forgiven? Right? Even though the atonement covered their sins they still go to Hell. You make the atonement meaningless. Reduced it to a nothing.

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

The reason I joined the action was because you said everyone was on holiday and I saw that you made a statement that I could correct so I took the lull as an oppotunity to correct you. I corrected your statement did I not? But this takes it off thread let's at least stick with the statement you made. Do you withdraw it?
Part of the statement read, "Can't you see that? No where in scripture does it say the sin of "some" has been atoned... And I said that the 'some' it referred to are true Israel. Israel were the only nation with the atonement so Israel were the 'some' while the world lays neglected to die in it's sins and go to the firely lake without hearing a whisper of any good news. Is that not so? PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
Therefore you statement was false wasn't it?
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...

That's all.

john.

 

JP,
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.... They'll just die of thirst or decide to exegete scripture rather than misapply it.

 

You still do not understand the truth of Atonement. Atonement is not forgiveness of Sin.

Atonement is the payment of the penalty for sin, by one who has not sinned for one who has sinned. There need be no forgiveness involved in the transaction.

Furthermore, why should the one sinned against forgive the sin of one who does not confess the sin and repent of continuing to sin, thus showing no contriteness of spirit?

Forgiveness is not what Atonement is about! Atonement is the payment of an established penalty by one on the behalf of another or many others.

God does not forgive man his sins by atoning for them. Most men do not even realize they have sinned. Those who seek forgiveness for sins, must acknowledge them and confess them to the one sinned against, in order to receive forgiveness.

 

Paul is telling the Ephesians about the elected apostles! That is not a general statement about Believers everywhere. The sooner you recognize that truth, the better off your unstanding will be.

 

Hello rc nice to see you. Hope you and yours are well.
I don't mind getting my feet wet and you never know when and if the Lord might take the blinkers off.

Hello Wes.

Thank you Wes.

Since Jesus died to atone for sin, and all have sinned, then the sin of all has been atoned! Can't you see that? No where in scripture does it say the sin of "some" has been atoned, scripture declares the sin of "many" vs the sin of "two", has been atoned. (Wes. posted 27 May, 2005 00:36 top page 3)

What's with all the questions? You probably know what I believe better than I know myself why can't you answer a simple correction? Wrong wasn't you?

Regardless of what it is and what it does it was meant for only 'some' wasn't it yes or no?
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
Therefore your statement was false wasn't it? That's all. I don't want to cross thread if you want you can explain atonement to me on another thread 'a'? Just let me know.

Yes I know you say that but that is insufficient to change the reality.

john.

 

This is all foolish talk revolving around a man-made theory of the atonement. Do we actually know WHAT it is? Did Jesus "pay the price," was He the object of God's wrath? Was He "punished?" Or did He suffer for us so that we can be forgiven, as the Bible says? That's all it really says! Are our sins imputed to Him literally, or figuratively? If literally, He could not have been spotless or sinless. If He was punished for our sins, then our sins are punished, not forgiven!

 

Man made theory?

Perhaps you would be so bold as to provide the God made theory of atonement!

 

Yes, the atonement that you are speaking of, which was and is part of the the ancient scriptures directed at the Jews, was limited to the Jews. That is because God did not open up to the Gentiles what he was doing for the Jews.

That all changed with the birth of Jesus, the Son of God. Perhaps not the birth per se, but the ministry in which the Jews rejected God the son. It was at that time that God initiated a NEW COVENANT! The old covenant remained valid for those who rejected Jesus, but the New Covenant, sealed in the Blood of Jesus, was for every one who did and would receive him. The Atonement provided by Jesus is unlike any other atonement in that it was for ALL sin in ALL times. There was nothing required of man for the atonement to be 100% effective because the Christ's atonement is UNILATERAL, and complete! There is nothing that man did, or could do to merit atonement for sin. The atonement was for sin! God the Son atoned for the sin, so that created man the sinner could through believing in HIM, have everlasting life.

Now that is entirely different than the atonement you have been talking about, that the Old Testament writers talk about. Their's was merely the foreshadow of the Atonement brought by the Christ.

 

Hello Wes.

There you go Wes it's not that bad to admit an error is it?

The atonement was for Israel alone.

But the one I was talking about, that is for Israel alone right?

A physical representation of a spiritual reality must be the same as the spiritual reality otherwise it is not a type is it? Yes or no.
If God wanted us to see spiritual realities through outward acts done by men then one would think that the shadow is exactly that, a shadow not a difference. Just how does the shadow differ from the reality? Then it would not be a shadow would it but it would be something else.

john.

 

Do not agree with you johnp!

Chalk and a chalk board, the basic tools of learning, are not the same as life experience. Those tools of learning only provide a glimpse at reality, not the reality. Those tools reveal what to look for in the reality. Israel had the tools, but did not recognize the reality.

The realities of the Old Testament atonement vs the reality of the New Testament atonement express different reality to us who can look back on them, hindsight is nearly perfect ya know.

"just how does the shadow differ from the reality?" It depends on where the SON is! The reality is not a shadow, that area where light is blocked or greatly reduced, but that which provides the light to make the shadow. The greater the light, the smaller and clearer the shadow. Shadows always lack detail, and that which is in the shadow, has nothing to do with that which made the shadow.

The OT atonement was merely a form of what would be. It was not the reality. It was the chalk on the chalkboard.

Who or what does Jesus' atonement apply to?

 

Here is just what I am saying; Scenario: Jesus bore our sins literally and was punished for our sins. Result: Those to whom the atonement is applied are saved. This means one MUST either believe in Universalism OR Limited Atonement. Those are the ONLY choices if you believe in the penal satisfaction theory of atonement. So, discarding Universalism, what will it be? Penal/Satisfaction/Payment atonement (which has to be a limited atonement), or Moral Governmental atonement?

 

Quite simply,You do not understand the ATONEMENT! The Christ atoned for sin, ALL the sin of the world. That means ALL sin in ALL times, from the very beginning until God casts SIN into the lake of fire. Some would say that is universalism, but I say it is UNILATERALISM, since there is nothing that man can contribute to atonement, and Atonement cannot be applied to man since its sole purpose was to defeat the power of sin. That power was the penalty that God established for sin...death, no not the first, physical death, but the second death where God judges man and casts those without faith into the lake of fire!

There is only one thing that God tells man to do regarding the atonement, and that is believe in His only begotten Son and thereby have everlasting life.

You say that atonement must be applied to someone, I tell you, you are wrong, Atonement has already served it's purpose by being applied to sin! Again, ALL Sin in ALL times. The sins of all mankind have been atoned by the ONCE for ALL death of the Christ on the cross 2000 years ago.

Thus it is that sin has no power to keep man captive, the penalty has been paid in full. Man must submit to sin for sin to win. Likewise, Man must submit to Christ in order to have everlasting life (salvation).

The Atonement defeated sin! We are no longer under the penalty of sin but are indeed set free! You and I need not die the second death, because sin is not charged against us from 2000 years ago. The only way that we do not face the second death is through FAITH in Jesus, even on his name. Sin is not a factor in man's salvation unless man refuses to repent from sinning. Now, AIN'T THAT GOOD NEWS (gospel)?

We are not under the penalty of sin so that, through faith, we can have everlasting life.

Please understand this: Just because the death penalty has been removed permanently from man doesn't mean that ALL mankind are saved. SALVATION is THROUGH FAITH, and is a Gift of God to those who have faith. IF every man had faith, then every man would be saved since salvation is through FAITH ALONE. But alas, for whatever reasons, not every man has faith! Therefore those who lack faith in God will indeed be cast into the lake of fire because their name has not been found in the book of life!

No 'universalism' here, and no 'limited atonement'! God simply does not operate that way.

 

Hello Wes.

Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

There is one atonement and there is an acting out of the atonement by the Israelites. The day of atonement is a type to show us what the reality of the atonement is about. Types are given by God so that we might understand spiritual things through earthy things.
Jesus died for His people. Limited atonement.

What is faith? Jesus told us to trust in God and to trust in Him but you trust Wes. You cannot trust Jesus to save you because you must save yourself. Me, I've had a sacrifice of atonement made on my behalf by God and we are now reconciled. The punishment that was due to me Jesus took on my behalf because He loved me. If you understood love then you would see that it never fails.
He committed Himself to me and love protects and protect me He did. Saying Jesus loves all makes His love of little value seeing as few are chosen.
Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
She did give birth and named Him Jesus. He did save His people.
All those people that believe they must choose are relying on themselves and are not trusting Jesus. John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
You do not believe on the One He sent Wes you trust in your own faith. Far from obedience you try to climb the mountain by yourself. The wages of sin is death. The only thing you can die for. Disobedience to God's law. Unbelief is a sin and you will die for unbelief because unbelief is a sin.

Answer the scripture, did Jesus save His people or not. Yes or no?

john.

 

Hello Wes.

Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

There is one atonement and there is an acting out of the atonement by the Israelites. The day of atonement is a type to show us what the reality of the atonement is about. Types are given by God so that we might understand spiritual things through earthy things.
Jesus died for His people. Limited atonement.</font>[/QUOTE]Well your whole argument is wasted. Scriptures tell us that Jesus' Atonement applies to SIN! It is for SIN that Jesus died "Once for ALL" to make payment in full for the penalty of SIN,...that which kept man from having everlasting life.

It is because the penalty of SIN is paid, that Jesus saves His People. So who are his people? John 3:16, ...Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, because the penalty for sin has been paid, but shall have everlasting life, because believers are not judged, John 3:18, while unbelievers are condemned by their own unbelief.

 

"Christ atoned for sin, ALL the sin of the world. That means ALL sin in ALL times, from the very beginning until God casts SIN into the lake of fire."


But the question I'm trying to ask--was this literal or figurative? If it was literal then even unbelievers would be in heaven.

 

Johnp: "There is one atonement and there is an acting out of the atonement by the Israelites. The day of atonement is a type to show us what the reality of the atonement is about. Types are given by God so that we might understand spiritual things through earthy things.
Jesus died for His people. Limited atonement."

How does your version of the atonement fit with the Levitical example? For there was a figurative atonement, it was not a "punishment" of the sacrifice, and it was not God's wrath being satisfied. It was purely figurative. Who exactly was the atonement for, other than "God's people" as a whole? Was it only for a specific number of persons? Was the atonement then not enough to atone for "one more?" How much physical sacrifice was required for each individual? Did the atonement apply to those who did not participate in it?

 

Hello Wes.

Yes. You agree Jesus came to save His people from their sins.

To some degree I'd agree with you but I believe Jesus saved His people on the cross.
His people, who are they?

Then they save themselves. But Jesus said that He would save His people not that He would enable people to save themselves. That is why I think He is called the Saviour you know? Because He saves. You tell us that we lack understanding but you don't even recognize English words. A Saviour saves.
...and he is still saving his people... John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
There are His people. The ones He came to be a Saviour to. Those He revealed God to are His people and only those.

It's part of my nature, "1 Cor 2:15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:"
What is it that you hate about this doctrine so much? Is it that it puts you in your place man?
But where was my judgment? That you try to achieve salvation by your own efforts, the very thing you claim. ...those whosoever's that choose of their own free will to believe in Him.

The wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23. It does not say, "The wages of sin was death." Does it?

Romans 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
What doesn't depend on man's effort? Salvation doesn't because God said, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
You call God a liar.

john.

 

Hello RodnStaff nice to meet you.

Wes says the atonement paid the penalty for all sin literally and before you jump to the conclusion that this universalism Wes has invented another way into Hell which is one of unbelief but unbelief is not a sin according to Wes..
One may find one's self in Hell with ones sins atoned for.

john.

 

Johnp, This is where I believe Wes's argument to be flawed seriously, and I am Arminian! Wes, if we expect Arminianism to even survive for long, we must properly understand the atonement!

Wes, read this:http://twtministries.com/articles/8_mgt/govthry.html
and maybe you can see what I'm trying to say as I probably didn't explain it properly.

 

Hello RodnStaff.

I don't know all the in's and out's of this yet as I have not been through this with anyone but I see Israel the nation as a physical way of representing spiritual realities.

The Day of Atonement did nothing to deflect God's wrath.

I think if you are interested we could take this to a new thread and discuss it there as this thread is on God changing His mind.

Shall I start a new thread and answer your post there?

My position would be that the atonement was given to Israel alone.

john.