Can God actually change His mind?

No! whether literal or figurative, Salvation is based on FAITH alone, and not faith plus anything.

Your understanding of atonement seems to be that atonement saves! That is not true! Atonement removed the penalty of sin from mankind that God established in the beginning, it does not save.

If atonement saved, then true, every human who ever lived, is living and will live, has been saved. But atonement does nothing more than make if possible for man to be saved by removing the death penalty imposed upon those who sin, and All have sinned.

Man's salvation is based upon man's faith in God...ALONE. Not faith plus anything.

God saves only those who have faith in Him, even on His name.

 

I've started an atonement thread.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/35/1462.html?

john.

 

Can you explain how this is possible? Those who are saved are merely being obedient to God, so how is it they save themselves?

Did he tell you exactly how he would do that?

Is there anything that I've posted that makes you think I do not believe that Jesus is the Savior?

Astute! But foolish on your part to think that I don't know that! But what does Jesus demand of those he saves?

Once more you have failed "Bible Reading 101". John 17:6 Jesus is praying to the father, speaking of the 12 that the father had given to Him. Those who were "Taught by God", Those "called for a specific purpose", Those who received the word of God first hand, experienced the miracles and divine power of the Christ. John 17:20 does mention the rest of us as being "those who through their teaching will come to believe in me. So Johnp, unless you are an Apostle of the Christ, John 17:6 does not apply to you! Again, you usurp that which is not yours in order to justify your false doctrine.

It's part of my nature, "1 Cor 2:15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:"</font>[/QUOTE]Then you are usurping and corrupting something that you have no entitlement to. You have continuously demonstrated that you are not a spiritual man.

The falsehood it conveys to its adherents.

Here we go again. FAITH is not a work, FAITH requires no EXPENDITURE OF ENERGY to acquire, FAITH TAKES UP NO SPACE! There is nothing about faith that can be attributed to man EXCEPT that FAITH is STRICTLY a human thing. Divinity requires no faith, and therefore has no faith! Therefore, by acquiring FAITH in God, no man achieves anything unto himself. He is merely accepting truth, and that is not a work.

CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING! The context of Romans 6:23 includes verses 1-23 with verse 23 being a comparison between sin and God's free gift of Salvation. If you are going to use Romans 6:23 as a proof text, you had better understand its context, which you obviously do not!

We are no longer bound by the law of sin and death. We are set free from sin's penalty, and we can have God's free gift to mankind which is SALVATION THROUGH FAITH! Jesus said it this way: "Whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish (die), but have everlasting life (SALVATION). Now if Jesus said it, who is Paul that he can change what God the Son established? Don't be foolish Johnp!

CONTEXT? Paul is teaching the Romans about the Place of Israel in the NEW COVENANT! Not spiritual Israel, but national Israel.

Pretty strong judgment Johnp! I could easily say the same of you! You reject major parts of God's word, because they do not fit into your False Doctrine. That makes you the one calling God a liar.

 

Hello Wes.

the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7.
They cannot save themselves. Regeneration is needed first.

By grace man.

Jesus saved His people. A denial of this makes Jesus not the Saviour. He will save His people. Not a might. Not a 'you become His people when you believe'. His people He will save. He does not need to save you Wes because you saved yourself. (Not really.) He does not need to save the saved. He will save His people.

High praise! Jesus demands nothing and expects everything! What does the Bridegroom demand from His Wife? Love makes no demands. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. 1 CO 13:4-8. It never demands!

I have come to know through their teaching that I am a Child of God and all that entails. I am heir to everything what is there to usurp? You know about Elijah? He was a man just like me.

Yea I get a lot of that! HaHa! It's alright coming from you. HaHa!

What falsehood? That it is by grace? Why should you hate it because of the falsehood conveyed to it's adherents because you have consistantly shown your hatred of them?

God's free gift to mankind which is SALVATION by grace THROUGH FAITH!
Sloppy there Wes.

Romans nine is about the Sovereignty of God.

john.

 

no answer to John 17?

 

I've got an answer to John 17.... Your view of Jesus' little "Breakfast Club" is embarrassing.
We are all taught by God... or I guess John 17 doesn't include Paul either... or was there some "exemption clause" in the prayer that was omitted in the text?... NOT... Ephesians 1 was to the elect not the twelve. The elect are all those who believe, not just the twelve... I have all the church fathers on my side you have NONE that comment on the "Elect" being just the twelve... your pride on this issue is ridiculous. You have been taught by those who know the Greek and grammar much better than you that you are completely wrong on this issue and should stop this teaching.

 

John 17 applies to all mankind - but a section of it makes specific reference to the "past work" of Christ (pre-cross) and HIS own followers who are with Him there in the upper room at the last supper. When He speaks of the "history" of what they have been doing then it is specific to them.

But in general - the chapter applies to all.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thanks Bob...

 

Wes,
Context IS everything... I wish you would practice what you preach.

CONTEXT? Paul is teaching the Romans about the Place of Israel in the NEW COVENANT! Not spiritual Israel, but national Israel.

Romans 9:6-7 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel , 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."

The whole chapter revolves around 9:6. Spiritual Israel....

 

Talk about embarrassing? The fact that you cannot discern who Jesus is talking about in his Prayer of verses 1-26 of John 17, is a total embarrassment to the Christian Believer, because you claim to be one.

As for John 17, If you would give it a moment of thought you would realize that Paul had not been converted at the time of Jesus' Prayer! Can you imagine that Jesus, as a man, knew of SAUL the persecutor who may have been a youth when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was praying for and about his closest associates of that hour, and they are the Apostles. Saul's conversion to Paul did not occur until after Jesus' ascension into heaven. We don't know how long after, maybe a decade or two or more. Why then would Jesus include Paul whom he has not revealed the father's name to? Why don't you think things through?

The Events recorded in the New testament did not occur in a week, they may well have spanned 50 to 70 years. The apostles themselves were all in their 20's and very early 30's when called by God the Son. And they for the most part died as senior citizens, it is not clear when Paul came on the scene, the ages of the Apostles are not recorded, only that they we men, and not boys. The church was established and already in foreign, "gentile" countries, before Paul was "recruited". Did you simply overlook these facts, or was it that you chose to reject them because they refute your Calvinistic belief system?

And in Ephesians 1, the introduction to Paul's letter to the believers in Ephesus, Paul is giving them a preamble that includes the beginning of the Church of Jesus Christ, and who was involved?...the apostles. It is not until verse 13 that Paul includes the Ephesians as being believers and therefore PART OF THE CHURCH of Jesus Christ.

BobRyan said,

I did not say that what is in John 17 "APPLIES" to anyone, I am saying that Jesus is speaking in his prayer to the Father of his Apostles in verses 1-19 and 24-26. Praying that the Father will protect them, and keep them together in unity now that He himself is returning to the Father. It is only verses 20-23 where Jesus speaks of those who will come to believe through the teachings of HIS Apostles that we are included in that prayer.

Surprising that you did not discern that.

 

In Vs 20-23 He applies the prayer not ONLY to the Disciples in the room but to ALL who would believe THROUGH them -- which makes the entire chapter applicable to all.

Here we see that the requests Christ is making to the Father on their behalf - are in fact on behalf of ALL.

This means that ALL are to be sanctified in Truth and for ALL - God's Word IS truth!

IT also means that unity in Christ is for ALL

And it means that "Christ in YOU the hope of Glory" is a promise claimed for ALL

It means that ALL saints are going to be WITH Christ (1Thess 4) IN heaven in answer to this request.

 

quote:
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...and he is still saving his people... John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word." There are His people. The ones He came to be a Saviour to. Those He revealed God to are His people and only those.
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It is John that points out that God sent him as "The Savior for the WORLD"

In John 6 - we see the point "again" that He gives is body as a sacrifice "for the WORLD".

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan,
You are simply misreading the scripture

 

And you say that because...

 

1. Who "at last" recognized that all that Jesus has came from the father? Who was with him the longest? and under his direct tutelage?

2. Who has accepted what Jesus taught them and know for certain that Jesus came from the father? Who confessed who and what Jesus is?

3. Vs 9 who is it that Jesus prays for, and who does he say that he is not praying for?

4. Who was given to Jesus?

5. Who is it "in whom Jesus is glorified"?

6. Who was it that Jesus kept true to the name of God?

7. verse 13, But now I am coming to you and I say these things "in the world to share my joy with them" to the full. Who was with Jesus during this prayer that would hear his words thus share his joy?

8. "I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them" Who is the "them", that were with Him to share his Joy? At the time of this prayer, who else would qualify?

9. "I am not asking you to remove them from the world, but to protect them from the Evil One." Who is the "them"?

10. "They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. Consecrate them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world and for their sake I consecrate myself so that they too may be consecrated in truth." Matthew 16-20, who did Jesus send into the world?

11. Then he says, "I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me."
I can most assuredly declare that YOU were not taught by God! You were taught by the Word of God (the teachings of the Apostles) as recorded by these Apostles and their forerunners, the prophets and scribes, etc., who wrote the collective texts that we call the bible. It is at this point that all the rest are brought into Jesus Prayer. Everything up to verse 20 is Jesus declaring his readiness to return to the father, and declaring his work with the Apostles is finished, and NO, Paul wasn't mentioned, because Paul was not among those who walked with Jesus learning from him. Indeed Paul would not show up for several years!

Jesus concludes His prayer by saying, "Father, Upright One, the world has not known you, but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me. I have made your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and so that I may be in them." Who does the "these" in "and these have known that you have sent me" apply to? "These" is present tense, and shows 'close proximity' to the speaker in the manner that we say 'these' regarding the ones we are in the presence of.

 

Wes, your slobbering over yourself again. Bob, who is NOT a Calvinist can see your understanding of scripture on this point is not correct. All you are doing to asking unreasonable questions and giving unreasonable answers to fit your obscure, fractured at best theology.

Thanks for refuting yourself Wes. If it was only the 12 that were "taught by God" then Paul wasn't. And that's all ridiculous dribble anyways. Paul writes later on in 1 Thes. that we are "taught by God" to love... anyways. The Word of God is the tool, what teaches is the HOLY SPIRIT. Which I believe is God.

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.(1)

I guess if I wrote you a letter and at the beginning I said "I'm glad we are friends." You would because of the GRAMMAR, would assume I am including YOU by using the 1st person plural, you wouldn't think I was saying I am glad that I am good friends with someone else!

Paul addresses the Ephesians in the first verse in the 1st person plural and continues. Verse 13 isn't a inclusive verse but IN ADDITION TO clause... Your problem is you are taking English (warped at best) and are even twisting the way we would use it in English! If Paul was using this as a launching pad for pride, He would of made a clear distinction of who he was talking about if it were not including all he was righting too. There isn't one commentator in History that has EVER had this view, and there's a good reason... it's BAD!

 

As I stated earlier there are some specific historic "past tense" events mentioned in John 17 that apply to the 12.

But the REQUEST that Christ makes in prayer is extended to ALL and not limited to the 12. His own prayer points that out.

OK - you want to go through the chapter and see each time the reference is not limited to the 12?

 

You both make it quite clear that you accept the scriptures on your own limited terms, and your own perverse interpretations.

 

Wes, how do you know that your interpretations are not "perverse"?

This forum is so vitrolic it saddens me. Why can't this topic be discussed in a freindly atmosphere? What ever happened to "speaking the truth in love"?

 

Wes, those "terms" aren't limited by us, they are limited by basic forms of grammar. Aren't you concerned that your "views" are contrary to everybody's opinion? Especially Historical Christianity's opinion? Teachings from pastors and teachers from today and the past are not near equaling the authority of scripture but the pendulum of the reformation has swung to far the other way. We should not forget God has given them to us for guidance to view teaching "in light" of scripture. As R.C Sproul said "If you find a doctrine that has not been accepted by the teachers of the last 2 thousand years it is a wise thing to discern that it is heretical.
Wes, don't you think it arrogant to stand up to 2 thousand years worth of teachers? Do you have the training that all of them had for the amount of time they put in for ALL of that time?

Though I don't believe in Arminianism and you know that, I can respect their different viewpoint however misguided (I believe) but your teaching on John 17 is outside of anything remotely orthodox in any theological construct.
Won't you please look at weight the immense amount of GOD given teachers that refute you?