Can God Be Real?

[TexasSky]

You wrote that free will conflict with God's sovreignty. That is inaccurate.


Permiting a servant freedom-of-action is not a sign of weakness.

In fact, it is the ULTIMATE act of authority in that ONLY the King can offer a pardon.

ONLY the King can give you the right to accept or refuse.

Freewill does not mean God ~could~ not force man to choose.

Freewill means God ~allows~ man to choose.

Calvinism, in teaching that all men have sinned, and some simply are not reached out to be the holy spirit - is, in essence, saying, "God does not call them to repent."

Follow that to a logical conculsion and you build a case for the philosophy professor, not God.

We accept these facts:
A) God knows all - ergo He knows men will sin.
B) God is all powerful - ergo He has the power to stop men from sinning.
C) Man sins.
D) God hates sin.
E) God loves sinners.
f) God IS love.

With these facts in mind. Why does sin continue?

Possiblity 1: God is not omnipotent.
God didn't really know they were sinning.
This violates given A.

Possiblity 2: God is not all powerful.
God couldn't prevent sin.
This violates given B.

Possibility 3: God is evil.
Even though He is all knowing, and all powerful, and even though only He can prevent sin, He
chooses not to call sinners to repentence ergo. He makes a deliberate choice to allow sin to continue unchecked in the world.
(And before you scream, no, not unchecked - if sin entered the world through 1 man, - allowing it to move through the world in even 1 person not called to repent - is choosing to allow it to move unchecked.)

This Violates Given C by indicating that the all powerful, all knowing God chose to do nothing to stop sin. Thus putting the responsiblity for sin back on God, instead of man, since God isn't even telling them that they need to repent.

This Violates Given D - In that it states that the all knowing, all powerful God has chosen to not even do the bare minimum to stop sin - ergo - He must not REALLY hate sin.

This Violates Given E - In that He doesn't even present the option of repentence or the possibilty of salvaton to all sinners. Ergo, He doesn't love the world, doesn't love sinners. He just loves a part of the world, and a few sinners.

This Violates Given F - In that He is not actually the emobidiment of love if He chooses not to even offer salvation to the majority of the world, and chooses not to even invite the majority of the world to repent.

This also disagrees with numerous scriptures. It disagrees with scriptures saying He sent His son to save the world, not condemn the world. It conflicts with scriptures saying that He desires that all men repent unto salvation. It conflicts with scriptures saying He is holy, in that it indicates that He allowed sin to spread without even calling men to repent. It conflicts with the scriptures that say He IS love. It conflicts with the scriptures that say sin entered the world through man.

Possibilty 4:
With the full authority of the King of Kings, God has called all sinners, ergo all men, to Him, and has offered each sinner a royal pardon, but, like MOST Kings, HE PERMITS the guilty to accept this offer of mercy or to refuse the offer of mercy.

This AGREES with Given A
He knows all, ergo He knows that ALL have sinned.

This also agrees with scripture that say all have sinned and scriptures that say He sent His message of grace that leads to salvation to all men.

This Agrees with Given B
ONLY the all powerful King of Kings can issue a royal pardon to anyone, but especially to those already condemned as guilty. A court can confict, a court may even reverse a conviction, but only the King of Kings can offer a pardon.

Only the King of Kings has the authority to allow servants a choice of acceptance or rejection of a royal decree.

Only the King of Kings has the authority to set the terms of the pardon. God's terms - accept my gift of Grace.

This also agrees with scripture. God sent, God called, God offered -- God is the authority.

This agrees with Given C
Man is the sinner. The responsiblity of sin is on man, not on God.

This agrees with Given D
God hates sin, and hating sin, God calls all men to repent. He doesn't turn His head the other way and let it continue. He doesn't ignore some sinners, only calling a few to repent from sin. He calls ALL MEN to repent from sin.
Again, this is supported by scripture.

This agrees with Given E
By offering grace to all men, God displays a patience and love to all men.
This is also supported by many scriptures, including the Great Commission that said to go to the world.

This agrees with Given F
As the very nature of God is love - He displays it here, by offering ALL unworthy men salvation, and yet permitting men to choose whether to follow Him or reject Him, not forcing them.


There are more Givens in these equations.

God is Just.
In fact, when Sodom was destroyed, and they bargained with God for men, the question came up. "Is God not just?"
God agreed to spare two entire cities of the worst kind of sinners rather than destroy a few righteous men.

God is JUST, but His justice leans toward mercy.

God says, "I desire mercy."

God says He desires that all men repent.

Possibilty four present an all powerful, all knowing, merciful, just, loving, creator who hates sin, but loves the sinner.

How can you accept any other possibility?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D Curlee...:
I'm confused with all of these answers.

1. Where in Scripture do we find that God is not the Author of sin?

2. Can someone define "free will" for me Biblically?

3. If God exhaustively foreknows EVERYTHING before He creates it, and if God works ALL things according to the counsel of His will, then didn't God by necessity have to author/determine evil, or else it would not be? In other words, had God not decreed evil to be BEFORE it actually was, then it would not be.

In Christ,

Dustin...

Welcome to BB Dustin. I see you have lots of questions. Unfortunately you are posting them in the wrong forum. This forum is a Baptist only forum, which you are not. Please post in those forums which are designated for non-Baptists or other denominations. Thank-you for your cooperation.

In Christ,
DHK

 

[D Curlee...]

DHK,

Actually, our fellowship is a part of SBTC. We just sat down last week with our area representative. If you need any proof of this, just e-mail me and let me know.

Now, I hope that someone will answer my questions.

In Christ,

Dustin...

 

[dianetavegia]

I moved this thread to Other Christian Denominations because the Original Poster gives his church information and I searched every page and couldn't find what they believe, let alone one mention of the word Baptist.

To Post In Baptist Only Forums, Webmaster has ruled, One must be an ACTIVE MEMBER of a BAPTIST CHURCH.

[ July 16, 2005, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[D Curlee...]

Texas,

Your post directly after mine (which was addressed to someone before me), although lengthy, is extremely inconsistent.

Can you address my second question which was, What is "free will" Biblically defined? That means I'd like a consistent definition from Scripture concerning what a "free will" is. Thank you.

If anyone would like to address questions 1 or 3, I'd appreciate that as well.

I'm off to spend the day with my gorgeous daughter and so I won't be checking this until later, or tomorrow.

In Christ,

Dustin...

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by wtrsju:
I really struggled with this question.


If God is conceived as all powerful, all knowing and all good then the existence of evil in the world require which of the following responses?

A. God cannot do anything about evil. (Therefore he is not all-powerful)

B. Satan or the devil is responisble for evil in the world.

C. God is not aware of the evil in the world. (This would imply that God is not all-knowing.)

D. God chooses the least amount of evil in the world to make the "best of possible worlds."

E. Evil is a necessary part of the world and part of God's creative process.

Imagine an all-powerful all-knowing all-loving Parent has a child and in their "all-loving" nature chooses that this child should have free will -- what happens if that child chooses a life of misery and rebellion?

If the Parent "lets the child live" is it because they are not all-powerful "enough" to zap the child, is it because their all-loving nature holds their all-powerful nature in check? etc etc.

If the parent KNEW the child was going to do that - but let them be born anyway - is this "again" a case of the all-loving nature of the parent restraining what the all-powerful nature would do based on the all-knowing information?

In the end - is not "tough to be God"??

In answer to your question - "I believe" that while God is all-powerful and all-knowing and perfectly just - He is also "Love" in fact "GOD IS" love. He also has more than one planet full of intelligent living beings to concern Himself with. (So the unfallen Angels for example - who long to look into the things of salvation since they reveal the depths of the heart of God).

This means that every action God takes - has a consequence at many different levels in the Universe. A loving God can not settle for simply being "arbitrary" or purely "dicatatorial" or "unmerciful" but can also not cross over to being "unstable, untrustworthy, unjust, merciless". The "sin experiment" (6000 years of sin suffering death misery and salvation) has to have "boundaries" and in the end it has to SHOW by compelling evidence that God IS love - He IS merciful but He also IS just.

If He lets sin run free and unchecked for all of eternity -- then clearly He was not wise enough to "devise a solution".

If He chokes the experiment before all the data is in - then in a free will system - sin might "rise up again" at some future point in time.

He has to do this thing "just right". And He has to open up His OWN actions for inspection.

We see this happening in Daniel 7 where myriads and myriads are present as the books are OPENED and the judgment scene is started with God presiding. (Obviously an all-knowing God does not NEED any of that - but an ALL-LOVING God would "need" to bring along His created intelligences in a free will system).

Notice in Rev 19:1-3 the "Evaluation" the "conclusion" of Angelic beings is that God is SHOWN to be just in His judgments. While in Rev 5 those same intelligences delcare that He is love and that He is worthy to judge since HE was slain for the sins of mankind.

Satan "plays the system" - as we see in Rev 12 - He knows God's weakness is in the form of unfallen beings created by God - who "might" question God (as did 1/3 of the perfect Angelic host) and so in Rev 12 Satan is the "Accuser of the Brethren" and in Job 1-2 we "see" him doing his job - and we see God allowing suffering and misery as the means of "disproving" the accusations against Job and indirectly accusations against the Mercy and justice of God Himself!

In Christ,

Bob