Can God be sovereign while men have free will?

[Robert Snow]

What I am against is when someone says that unregenerate man is able, on his own, to choose or reject God.
(addendum)
This assumption robs God of His glory and elevates man to His level, not that it actually takes away from the glory of God...

No it doesn't. If God ordained it to give man a choice, which He does, it doesn't take any glory away from God. It only glorifies Him more because man is doing what God decreed.

Some of you are too intrenched in Calvinistic teaching to see the plain teaching of Scripture concerning choice, like where God say, "Come unto me...in Matt. 11:28.

 

[pinoybaptist]

No it doesn't. If God ordained it to give man a choice, which He does, it doesn't take any glory away from God. It only glorifies Him more because man is doing what God decreed.

Some of you are too intrenched in Calvinistic teaching to see the plain teaching of Scripture concerning choice, like where God say, "Come unto me...in Matt. 11:28.

So, in other words, Mr. Snow, you are saying that the work of redemption is still ongoing as of the present time, because that is what you seem to be implying when you quote Scriptures that "invite" sinners to Christ.

The blood is insufficient, the stripes are insufficient, the tomb and the ascencion means nothing.

Christ is still doing the Father's command at this point in time ?

 

[Skandelon]

I'm sorry you're taking my resistance to your doctrine personally, Skan, I wish you didn't.

I'm not taking anything you said personally, because what you said doesn't apply to what I believe. Who here believes men can be saved on their own?

 

[Robert Snow]

So, in other words, Mr. Snow, you are saying that the work of redemption is still ongoing as of the present time, because that is what you seem to be implying when you quote Scriptures that "invite" sinners to Christ.

The blood is insufficient, the stripes are insufficient, the tomb and the ascencion means nothing.

Christ is still doing the Father's command at this point in time ?

I don't know where you got all this from except that you seem to like to put words in other people's mouths.

So Mr. Pinoybaptist, are you saying that Christ' blood isn't sufficent to save today?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I don't know where you got all this from except that you seem to like to put words in other people's mouths.

I like to put words into people's mouths ?
Okay, here's one Scripture to ponder, Mr. Snow.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now, is Christ still obtaining, or will Christ be obtaining, or has Christ not obtained yet, eternal redemption for his people, all of them, whoever they are, and wherever they are, and whenever they existed in this plane called time.

If you agree that He did obtain what He came to obtain, then the task of redemption and salvation is done and complete, and, this might be news to you, He finished it, completed it, before you were even born, and before you, skandelon, winman, and all other Arminians here, in fact, even before Arminius knew the words "faith", "belief", "believe", "obedience", "ability", and before you even grasped the concept of a new birth, or before you even loathed Calvinism, or the Doctrine of Grace, and their proponents, and vice-versa.

If you agree that Christ, in accordance with the Scriptures, did enter into the holy place, by His blood, having obtained eternal redemption for "us", then He must have redeemed the "us", and if He redeemed the "us", then these "us" were redeemed with no prerequisites, and so, any discussion on the ability or inability of man to respond to God, and thus be qualified to redemption, makes redemption and the work of Christ unfinished and ongoing, and therefore the question was put to you.

So Mr. Pinoybaptist, are you saying that Christ' blood isn't sufficent to save today?

No, and given the above, who's putting words to whose mouth now ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I'm not taking anything you said personally, because what you said doesn't apply to what I believe. Who here believes men can be saved on their own?

Alright, if you don't, then let's put that to rest, shall we ?

 

[Winman]

I'm sorry you're taking my resistance to your doctrine personally, Skan, I wish you didn't.
But please note the word "unregenerate".
It has been argued repeatedly that the unregenerate is dead in sin, and it has been counter-argued just as repeatedly that he is not really dead as in lifeless, and I don't know how something or someone described by Scripture itself to be dead in sin and trespasses can really be not dead but have some life in them.
A light bulb unplugged from the source of power is absolutely lightless, and a leaf separated from a tree which is its life giving source is dead and will soon wither, and the tree uprooted from the ground from which it gets its sustenance is nothing more than a dead trunk.
Lazarus was as dead as dead can be in that cave, and there was no way he could will himself out of it, nor scream for help, nor stop his body from rotting, and it took the voice of the Son of God calling his name specifically to bring him back to life.
Your buddy pointed out that the rich man was able to talk and to worry about his brothers in this life and points to that as proof that dead is not really dead, but that was his soul, and his body is still dead, and furthermore, his soul is dead because while it sees God and is able to reason with God that soul is still separate from the source of life who is God, while Abraham is in union with the source of life and is therefore a living soul, and that's what it is all about, this question of dead or alive: is the unregenerate in union with the source of life ?
And even in the same example which your buddy pointed to, the dead rich man is unable to come to terms with his need to repent and ask his God for mercy, like Judas who walked with Christ yet prevented by his pride to go to the One he has wronged and beg for forgiveness, like Jerusalem whom Christ declared "ye would not".
But to my mind, these discussions are moot and academic when we come to terms with the fact that Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus came to do what He was sent by God to do, and He did it, too, that is, redeem His people, and any discussion on whether one is able of His own, or by God's power, to come to Christ, presupposes that the task is not done, or is incomplete.

First of all, the Lazarus shown in Luke 16 in hell and the Lazarus Jesus raised from the dead are not the same person. Lazarus in Luke 16 was a cripple and a beggar who laid in the streets all day begging money for sustenance.

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

It does not directly say he was a cripple here, but it says he was "laid at his gate" which strongly implies so.

The Lazarus whom Jesus raised from the dead was the brother of Martha and Mary, both of whom were Christians and disciples of the Lord. Martha owned her own home and opened it up to Jesus.

Luke 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.

So, if you believe that the Lazarus who laid at the rich man's gate and the Lazarus whom Jesus raised from the dead are the same, you would have to believe that Martha, a good Christian woman would have allowed her brother to lay in the streets begging everyday. I hardly believe that.

Now, you may not like it, but the scriptures show the rich man in hell speaking to Abraham, and they show Abraham who was also physically dead for nearly two thousand years speaking back to the rich man. These are the very words of Jesus Christ himself, so I have no problem believing this account.

Now, I do not believe the dead have the ability to raise themselves. Lazarus could only come out of the grave if Jesus called him. But notice Jesus gave Lazarus a command to "come forth".

John 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Now, I'm not saying I understand this, who could understand this, but Jesus called to Lazarus with a loud voice and Lazarus heard him and obeyed and came out of the grave. That is what the scriptures say.

You still cannot grasp what death means in the scriptures. When a person dies, their spirit leaves their body. It is separation.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When Lazarus died, his spirit left his body and went down into hell. Before Jesus rose from the dead there were two compartments in hell, one a place of torment, the other called Abraham's bosom or paradise. Lazarus's spirit went down into one or other of these places. But he was not like a lifeless corpse there. He could hear, see, talk, and other functions. But he could not come out of this place. In fact, the scriptures seem to show that a person's spirit has to be carried by the angels to get there.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

So, this is somewhat speculation on my part, but when Jesus called for Lazarus to come forth from the grave, I think the angels went and retrieved him and brought him back to his body. Once his spirit reentered his body, he was no longer dead.

But it was Lazarus who had to respond to Jesus's command. And Lazarus did obey Jesus's command as shown in John 11:44 (and he that was dead came forth).

And this may shock you, but the witch of Endor with a familiar spirit in 1st Samuel 28 had the ability to bring up Samuel's spirit from hell.

1 Sam 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

The witch of Endor was able to call Samuel up from the underworld. He did not reenter his body, it was only his spirit, but it could be recognized. And king Saul held a conversation with Samuel. Samuel who was dead could speak to Saul and hear Saul's response and vice versa. It is clearly stated in scripture.

You may not like all this, as it contradicts your doctrine, but the scriptures clearly show that when a person dies their spirit leaves their body, but that spirit can still function. It can see, hear, speak and all other functions.

I do not understand how this witch brought Samuel up. Familiar spirits were forbidden by law and were to be put to death, but this woman clearly brought Samuel's spirit up out of the earth.

 

[Amy.G]

The account of Lazarus being raised from the dead isn't about salvation. It is about resurrection. That is the whole context of the passage.


Joh*11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh*11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh*11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh*11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh*11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

 

[Winman]

The account of Lazarus being raised from the dead isn't about salvation. It is about resurrection. That is the whole context of the passage.


Joh*11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Joh*11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Joh*11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh*11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh*11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Amy, I agree with you, I am responding to this comment by Pinoybaptist

A light bulb unplugged from the source of power is absolutely lightless, and a leaf separated from a tree which is its life giving source is dead and will soon wither, and the tree uprooted from the ground from which it gets its sustenance is nothing more than a dead trunk.
Lazarus was as dead as dead can be in that cave, and there was no way he could will himself out of it, nor scream for help, nor stop his body from rotting, and it took the voice of the Son of God calling his name specifically to bring him back to life.

Calvinist's often argue that the spiritually dead are like a lifeless corpse and have no ability to repent or believe on Christ. But that is never shown in scripture, in fact, just the opposite is shown many times. The rich man in hell could not come out, but he certainly could cry for mercy as the scriptures say he did. He could see, hear, feel pain, and other functions. He repented, he realized he had trusted in his riches and not God and saw his mistake and asked if Abraham would send someone to his five brothers to testify to them, saying they would repent. But once you die it is too late to repent. For the scriptures say that a man dies, then the judgment.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If the rich man did not repent in hell, he would not have asked Abraham to send someone from the dead to testify to his brothers. He would have still been in rebellion to God.

Calvinist's cannot accept this as it disproves their doctrine.

 

[Amy.G]

I agree with you Winman. I was just responding to the notion that Cal's have that the resurrection of Lazarus is about salvation, which it is not. Context rules!

 

[Winman]

I agree with you Winman. I was just responding to the notion that Cal's have that the resurrection of Lazarus is about salvation, which it is not. Context rules!

Thank you Amy. You know, I am not trying to say crazy, controversial things here. The scriptures say the witch of Endor brought Samuel's spirit up. I did not make that up. I am just going by what the scriptures say and show. Believe me, I do not understand it, but I accept scripture as truth.

I think in the case of devils or demons that Jesus cast out, it is also shown they have abilities.

Luke 8:26 And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.
27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.

This passage is astounding. First, at times it speaks of this man being controlled by a single unclean spirit, but then says he was possessed by a legion of spirits. Strong's concordance defines a legion as approximately 6,826 men. Incredible. Perhaps one spirit was the leader?

These spirits could exercise control over the man. They gave him strength to break chains and fetters, and drove him into the wilderness (vs 29).

But notice this unclean spirit fell down before Jesus. And notice in verse 31 that they begged Jesus not to send them out into the deep. I do not know if this means the nearby sea, or it might mean hell. They begged that they be allowed to enter the swine nearby. And it is amazing that Jesus granted their request in verse 32.

But notice the ability of these spirits in verse 33. It says the devils went out of the man and entered the swine. This shows action on their part.

So, I am still studying this, but it seems spirits have ability, but they are under the authority of Christ. They can only do what he allows them to do.

Verse 33 is astounding. I do not know if the swine plunged into the sea because the spirits caused them to do so, or because the swine were made insane by these spirits. Perhaps they were so tormented by the presence of these evil spirits that they purposely drowned themselves??

 

[Robert Snow]

No, and given the above, who's putting words to whose mouth now ?

Turn about is fair play!

 

[Robert Snow]

I like to put words into people's mouths ?
Okay, here's one Scripture to ponder, Mr. Snow.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now, is Christ still obtaining, or will Christ be obtaining, or has Christ not obtained yet, eternal redemption for his people, all of them, whoever they are, and wherever they are, and whenever they existed in this plane called time.

If you agree that He did obtain what He came to obtain, then the task of redemption and salvation is done and complete, and, this might be news to you, He finished it, completed it, before you were even born, and before you, skandelon, winman, and all other Arminians here, in fact, even before Arminius knew the words "faith", "belief", "believe", "obedience", "ability", and before you even grasped the concept of a new birth, or before you even loathed Calvinism, or the Doctrine of Grace, and their proponents, and vice-versa.

If you agree that Christ, in accordance with the Scriptures, did enter into the holy place, by His blood, having obtained eternal redemption for "us", then He must have redeemed the "us", and if He redeemed the "us", then these "us" were redeemed with no prerequisites, and so, any discussion on the ability or inability of man to respond to God, and thus be qualified to redemption, makes redemption and the work of Christ unfinished and ongoing, and therefore the question was put to you.

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ obtained the ability to forgive every sin when He satisfied God's wrath on sin by His death, burial and resurrection. I believe in order for this forgiveness to be effective one must repent and come to God and confess that Jesus is Lord and receive this gift from God. I also believe that God, knowing all things, knew in eternity past who would and who would not receive this gift of salvation from Him.

 

[Revmitchell]

and so, any discussion on the ability or inability of man to respond to God, and thus be qualified to redemption, makes redemption and the work of Christ unfinished and ongoing, and therefore the question was put to you.

absurd........

 

[pinoybaptist]

absurd........

one liners.

 

[Amy.G]

But notice this unclean spirit fell down before Jesus. And notice in verse 31 that they begged Jesus not to send them out into the deep. I do not know if this means the nearby sea, or it might mean hell.

It means hell.

Strong's Greek Dictionary
12. abussos
Search for G12 in KJVSL
abussoV abussos ab'-us-sos
from 1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of 1037; depthless, i.e. (specially) (infernal) "abyss":--deep, (bottomless) pit.

See Greek 1
See Greek 1037

 

[pinoybaptist]

I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ obtained the ability to forgive every sin when He satisfied God's wrath on sin by His death, burial and resurrection. I believe in order for this forgiveness to be effective one must repent and come to God and confess that Jesus is Lord and receive this gift from God. I also believe that God, knowing all things, knew in eternity past who would and who would not receive this gift of salvation from Him.

Mr. Snow, Jesus Christ did not simply obtain the ability to forgive sins, as you put it.
He always had the right to forgive.
He said so in Matthew 9:6, which I quote:
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise , take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

The question put to you was: "is Christ still obtaining, or will Christ be obtaining, or has Christ not obtained yet, eternal redemption for his people, all of them, whoever they are, and wherever they are, and whenever they existed in this plane called time" and you provide this evasive answer.

But be of good cheer, because many Christians of today, Arminian and Calvinist, even, will do the same, because that question confronts today's popular theologies whose proponents and preachers harp on the "need to
save souls, or get souls saved" and by save and saved, of course, they mean, eternally saved and eternally redeemed, the
type of salvation and redemption which Christ ALREADY achieved.

So, Mr. Snow, you are in good company.

That question is confrontational for many reasons.

First, if Christ ALREADY, as provided by Scripture, obtained eternal redemption (not just the ability to forgive sins) for "us",
then what can mortal man do more than the eternal God Himself did.

Second, if the salvation and redemption that Christ obtained is eternal in its character and scope, then what of Scriptures that
seem to state, or has been taught to state, that man must have faith in order to be saved and what of the many statements of
the apostles themselves, such as Paul, for example, who said to believers, "the gospel by which you are saved" ?

Third, if the Savior and Redeemer already finished the tasks for which He earned the rights to these two titles, then could it be
possible that for many centuries the Scriptures have been wrongfully divided and taught from church pulpits, seminary
podiums and home Bible studies and revered and renowned preachers, especially of the Arminian tradition (but not to
exclude some of those of the Calvinist persuasions) have been wrong all along ?

Now, I do not have reason to doubt your sincerity as a Christian, not knowing you personally, and I profess in print I do not
doubt your sincerity at all, and the reason I asked that question is not to cast doubts or aspersions on your salvation, but simply to point out that we can argue till we're blue on the many things being argued about in this frustrating and sometimes downright aggravating forums and we'll simply end up dishonoring a Savior who did, and did well, what He purposed to do from before the foundation of the world, because our arguments, questions, and reasoning proceeds from the rationale,
whether we admit it or not, that eternal salvation is an ongoing, unfinished process with the arguments running the gamut of
necessary faith to repentance to ability or inability to respond to the call of the Spirit, all of which become moot and academic, IF we accept that the task is done.

It will be like wondering what would have been the turnout if Adam had chosen to remain loyal and trusting to the Creator who
supplied him everything he needed. The facts are he did not, he chose to obey and believe another created being, he was
remiss in his spiritual responsibility to his wife, and now his race and the world is harvesting the results.

It will be like wondering what would have happened if God decided not to redeem anyone, at all, from the fallen race of Adam,
and instead destroyed everything He created, including the fallen angels, and instead create everything anew. We know it
never happened. God, in His mercy, did promise redemption, which, as stated happened at Calvary, after being typified,
pictured, shadowed, and prophecied in the Old Testament.

I have been hostile to you in a few posts, Mr. Snow, and it was unfair of me to do so.

Please accept my apologies.

 

[HankD]

Third, the Bible NEVER speaks of man having free-will.

Acts 5
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.​

Power: Strong's 1849 evxousi,a

exousia {ex-oo-see'-ah}​

Meaning:
1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases 1a) leave or permission 2) physical and mental power 2a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises.​

Same word:

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.​

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?​

Revelation 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.​

HankD​

 

[thecross2]

I haven't read everything in this thread. But I read enough. Man I never feel so simple, then when I read people and their theology. It amazes me how much information there is out there. And yet, most of it cannot be found in the Word of God anywhere.

I don't mind people having their opinions. It's when one side gets ugly. Everybody loves Spurgeon. But he made no bones about his disdain for Free Will and those that believe it. And he was quite ugly about it.

In Matthew 15:9 Jesus spoke of Isaiah's prophecy when He said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Almost 2 thousand years later and we still don't get it. We spew our rhetoric and put words in God's Mouth… all to prove our own opinions. And in the process, I think we overcomplicate things. I’m sure some would even challenge the Lord Jesus Christ that to love the Lord with all the heart, mind, soul and strength would constitute work and thereby make null and void the gift of Grace.

Being a Christian and walking the strait and narrow is hard enough, without all these so-called theologians slinging mud at each other.

Let’s all follow Romans 3:4 "…let God be true, but every man a liar..."

I believed man’s theology for some time. Being a new-born babe in Christ, I had no choice. They led, I followed. Imagine my surprise, when I began reading my Bible for myself and not having anyone interpret It for me, I all of a sudden realized those doctrines were nowhere to be found within the Book. Part of me was angry for being misled. Part of me was disappointed… saddened.

God is not the author of confusion… So who is?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I haven't read everything in this thread. But I read enough. Man I never feel so simple, then when I read people and their theology. It amazes me how much information there is out there. And yet, most of it cannot be found in the Word of God anywhere.

I don't mind people having their opinions. It's when one side gets ugly. Everybody loves Spurgeon. But he made no bones about his disdain for Free Will and those that believe it. And he was quite ugly about it.

In Matthew 15:9 Jesus spoke of Isaiah's prophecy when He said, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Almost 2 thousand years later and we still don't get it. We spew our rhetoric and put words in God's Mouth… all to prove our own opinions. And in the process, I think we overcomplicate things. I’m sure some would even challenge the Lord Jesus Christ that to love the Lord with all the heart, mind, soul and strength would constitute work and thereby make null and void the gift of Grace.

Being a Christian and walking the strait and narrow is hard enough, without all these so-called theologians slinging mud at each other.

Let’s all follow Romans 3:4 "…let God be true, but every man a liar..."

I believed man’s theology for some time. Being a new-born babe in Christ, I had no choice. They led, I followed. Imagine my surprise, when I began reading my Bible for myself and not having anyone interpret It for me, I all of a sudden realized those doctrines were nowhere to be found within the Book. Part of me was angry for being misled. Part of me was disappointed… saddened.

God is not the author of confusion… So who is?

Well, now, you have your own opinions and conclusions, as well.
So, welcome to the club.:laugh: