Can God forgive sins, and why did Jesus die?

[DaveXR650]

It seems like verses 21 talk about the common and true aspect of the atonement that Christ is our example of how we should live, specifically when dealing with suffering. Verse 22 talks talks about the fact that he himself had committed no sin which qualifies him as a perfect sacrifice, and in addition it continues the theme of how he functioned as an example to us. Verse 24 flat our says he bore our sins in his body on the cross which is penal substitution. And it says we can die to sin, which we symbolize in baptism when we say buried in believers baptism, raised to walk in newness of life. (I might be accused of eisegesis by saying that the only reason we can say that is because he bore our sins in his body on the tree, but the words "he bore our sins in his body on the tree are direct quotes.) Anyone who keeps saying that doesn't also mean he bore our sins in his body instead of us having to bear our own sins in my opinion is just being deliberately obstinate. The whole passage also ties in our salvation to the passage familiar to everyone in Isaiah.

One problem I see on here is that if one thing is brought up that is now assumed to be "the thing". For instance, the idea of the atonement as being Christ providing an example and a motivation is clearly true, and also clearly taught by those who believe in penal substitution. The idea of the necessity of us having a "union" with Christ is also a true teaching as being necessary for our salvation. The idea of us being "ransomed" by Christ is also true, and also taught, even in the larger catechism by Owen for example. The idea that Christ achieved a victory over the powers of darkness, sin and Satan in the atonement is also clearly taught by those who believe in penal substitutionary atonement.

If you like to exegete, how about Hebrews 8,9, and 10 which I agree, the best way to do this is not really to exegete at all, just read all three chapters at once, several times. Then ask yourself, can I really get away with saying that this is all about solidarity, or providing an example, or do I have to deal with the concept that I am helpless and totally dependent on Christ acting on my behalf by taking care of my sin with the application, somehow of his own blood. Is Christ doing something for me that I am not even allowed to be in on or is this a joint effort of solidarity. And if I refuse that, am I going to fall under the warning in chapter 10: 29-31?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm afraid you're right. This is exactly what I have been worrying about with Jon's views on this site for quite a while. The fact is there are plenty of verses in scripture supporting the concept of Jesus dying for our sins based upon looking at the Old Testament sacrificial system, and then the verses in the New Testament that relate and refer to them and expand on them. The fact that some won't accept them is what it is but that does not make them untrue.

You need to know that I myself have been told in the past on here of various theologians who are against penal substitution only to find out that that is not the case when you read them. Jon even tried to act like he was with Spurgeon on this even though Spurgeon wrote extensively on the fact that some in his day were subverting the faith by doing the very same thing with the atonement.

Also you will notice that there is no organized group of churches ever put forward that holds to this stuff they are saying and I think it is because they do not want everyone to examine them and see where they are on other areas of doctrine. So what you are experiencing is the sad state of affairs where on a Baptist board one of the moderators is spouting what may be at best a misunderstood reading of certain scriptures and at worse may be coming under a bad influence. I don't know.

Be advised that as a layman you need commentaries, the opinions of good theologians, and yes, even YouTube videos. There are good ones and some to avoid and you will just have to find out on your own who is what. But run from anyone who acts like they are above the need for such resources and relies on their own private interpretations of scripture, and even worse, thinks they have had special revelation or insight.

It's not one person perse, the world will be full of them.

I just manage to get frustrated when people lie and and change their point of view on something as often as the wind changes direction.

There's just a level where I'm not sure if everyone is doing the same thing and I just can't notice every potential miswording or mischaracterization, it's difficult not to trust anyone and have no human anchor to help make sure I'm even understanding.