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Can God-Given Faith be Defective?
- Thread starter Lou Martuneac
- Start date
Lou Martuneac
New Member
Will Not Be Deterred
A note to each of you who have a problem with my addressing the egregious errors of Lordship Salvation:
I am not going to surrender the doctrinal high-ground or stop sounding the alarm as long as there exists the teaching and spread of Lordship Salvation.
You can raise any complaint you like, question my motives, character, integrity and reputation just as much as you feel compelled to do so. None of it, however, will deter me from doing all I can to protect unsuspecting believers, across a broad spectrum of evangelical Christianity, from the works based, man-centered message that is Lordship Salvation. Neither will I be deterred from identifying the men who are the most prolific advocates of Lordship’s false interpretation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
LM
A note to each of you who have a problem with my addressing the egregious errors of Lordship Salvation:
I am not going to surrender the doctrinal high-ground or stop sounding the alarm as long as there exists the teaching and spread of Lordship Salvation.
You can raise any complaint you like, question my motives, character, integrity and reputation just as much as you feel compelled to do so. None of it, however, will deter me from doing all I can to protect unsuspecting believers, across a broad spectrum of evangelical Christianity, from the works based, man-centered message that is Lordship Salvation. Neither will I be deterred from identifying the men who are the most prolific advocates of Lordship’s false interpretation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
LM
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Lou Martuneac
New Member
For those of you who are lurking in these threads- keep in mind that IMO the LS controversy is NOT over what should be the natural results of salvation. The crux and focal point of the doctrinal controversy is over what Lordship requires of the lost for salvation.
I understand why many will not post in these threads. Any one of you is welcome to e-mail me with questions and/or comments. I do my best to respond to all well-intentioned contacts.
If you want to post comments in any of my *37 Lordship Salvation articles JArthur graciously pointed out above, you are welcome to do so. I will interact with you there. I do not allow for the kind of vitriol that is often present at more open discussion boards. Your views will not become targets for uncharitable attacks by those who disagree with you and your views.
Kind regards,
LM
*Lordship Salvation Article #38 will be posted at my blog later this evening.
Requirements for salvation, NOT the results of salvation is the crux of the debate.
I understand why many will not post in these threads. Any one of you is welcome to e-mail me with questions and/or comments. I do my best to respond to all well-intentioned contacts.
If you want to post comments in any of my *37 Lordship Salvation articles JArthur graciously pointed out above, you are welcome to do so. I will interact with you there. I do not allow for the kind of vitriol that is often present at more open discussion boards. Your views will not become targets for uncharitable attacks by those who disagree with you and your views.
Kind regards,
LM
*Lordship Salvation Article #38 will be posted at my blog later this evening.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Lou Martuneac said:
Your words would mean something if you were fair and honest. You have shown to mislead in your post. Even on the things I agree with you on, such as "free grace" I must take with a grain of salt, for I can not longer trust your words only.
Your attacks on MacArthur is meaningless when you are dishonest. Please ask the BB to forgive you and then come back and try again.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
There is no "doctrinal highground" when you can not/will not/ are not able to accurately and honestly state what John MacArthur believes.Lou Martuneac said:
Literally dozens of times in the "The Gospel According to Jesus", John MacAthur specifically states or alludes to his belief that salvation is completely a work of God. That men cannot do any work that merit salvation. You will not even acknowledge that fact.
Disagree with MacArthur all you want, Lou Martuneac. But if you want anyone to consider you to be an honest apologist for your beliefs, you must first be able to accurately and honestly state the other person's position.
You have not yet done that.
peace to you and congratulations to your daughter.
raying:Lou Martuneac
New Member
To Reiterate:
A note to each of you who have a problem with my addressing the egregious errors of Lordship Salvation.
I am not going to surrender the doctrinal high-ground or stop sounding the alarm as long as there exists the teaching and spread of Lordship Salvation.
You can raise any complaint you like, question my motives, character, integrity and reputation just as much as you feel compelled to do so. None of it, however, will deter me from doing all I can to protect unsuspecting believers, across a broad spectrum of evangelical Christianity, from the works based, man-centered message that is Lordship Salvation. Neither will I be deterred from identifying the men who are the most prolific advocates of Lordship’s false interpretation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
LM
A note to each of you who have a problem with my addressing the egregious errors of Lordship Salvation.
I am not going to surrender the doctrinal high-ground or stop sounding the alarm as long as there exists the teaching and spread of Lordship Salvation.
You can raise any complaint you like, question my motives, character, integrity and reputation just as much as you feel compelled to do so. None of it, however, will deter me from doing all I can to protect unsuspecting believers, across a broad spectrum of evangelical Christianity, from the works based, man-centered message that is Lordship Salvation. Neither will I be deterred from identifying the men who are the most prolific advocates of Lordship’s false interpretation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
LM
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
You reiterate and I will simply say what I said before:
There is no "doctrinal highground" when you can not/will not/ are not able to accurately and honestly state what John MacArthur believes.
Literally dozens of times in the "The Gospel According to Jesus", John MacAthur specifically states or alludes to his belief that salvation is completely a work of God. That men cannot do any work that merit salvation. You will not even acknowledge that fact.
Disagree with MacArthur all you want, Lou Martuneac. But if you want anyone to consider you to be an honest apologist for your beliefs, you must first be able to accurately and honestly state the other person's position.
You have not yet done that.
peace to youraying:
There is no "doctrinal highground" when you can not/will not/ are not able to accurately and honestly state what John MacArthur believes.
Literally dozens of times in the "The Gospel According to Jesus", John MacAthur specifically states or alludes to his belief that salvation is completely a work of God. That men cannot do any work that merit salvation. You will not even acknowledge that fact.
Disagree with MacArthur all you want, Lou Martuneac. But if you want anyone to consider you to be an honest apologist for your beliefs, you must first be able to accurately and honestly state the other person's position.
You have not yet done that.
peace to you
raying:JustChristian
New Member
Lou Martuneac said:
You speak of the need to accept Christ as both Savior and Lord is a new "liberal" belief. Baptists have always believed this. Whe I accepted Him over 50 years ago I understood and affirmed that I was accepting Him as my Lord and Savior. Insidious? What's insidious is self-proclaimed Christians claiming that they don't have to be born again to be saved. That's not only insidious, it's heretical.
Lou Martuneac
New Member
To BB Readers:
Please understand some of these men are intent on doing what they can to distract attention away from the documented proof that Lordship Salvation is a false interpretation of the Gospel. It appears they believe questioning motives is a suitable way to avoid the obvious meaning of the documented statements on LS by men such as John MacArthur.
They consistently cry, “misrepresentation,” because they have no answer to the obvious doctrinal errors in the LS interpretation of the Gospel.
This thread was opened with an article from Pastor George Zeller. Brother Zeller has written volumes that expose and prove from the Scriptures that Lordship Salvation is a false gospel, a works based message. For example see Zeller's John MacArthur's Position on the Lordship of Christ
Zeller, just as I do, quotes MacArthur and addresses the quotation. Of course, the cry against Zeller in this thread was, “misrepresentation.”
Do not let the cries of “misrepresentation,” from LS apologists deter you from reading and testing LS against the Scriptures. And remember the debate is over the requirements for, NOT the results of salvation.
In this article Zeller shows another one of MacArthur’s views that “fails the test of Scripture.”
These men have my prayers for their recovery from the teachings of Lordship Salvation, and the extra-biblical presuppositions from the circle logic of five point Calvinism that lead to LS. In the meantime I will do what I can to advise and protect the unsuspecting from the egregious errors of Lordship Salvation so that, Lord willing, not one more falls into this doctrinal trap.
John MacArthur teaches that the God-given faith of a believer cannot be defective. Here is Zeller’s article.
LM
For another documented example from the writing of John MacArthur that Lordship Salvation conditions the reception of salvation on a commitment to perform works read John MacArthur on James 4:7-10
Please understand some of these men are intent on doing what they can to distract attention away from the documented proof that Lordship Salvation is a false interpretation of the Gospel. It appears they believe questioning motives is a suitable way to avoid the obvious meaning of the documented statements on LS by men such as John MacArthur.
They consistently cry, “misrepresentation,” because they have no answer to the obvious doctrinal errors in the LS interpretation of the Gospel.
This thread was opened with an article from Pastor George Zeller. Brother Zeller has written volumes that expose and prove from the Scriptures that Lordship Salvation is a false gospel, a works based message. For example see Zeller's John MacArthur's Position on the Lordship of Christ
Zeller, just as I do, quotes MacArthur and addresses the quotation. Of course, the cry against Zeller in this thread was, “misrepresentation.”
Do not let the cries of “misrepresentation,” from LS apologists deter you from reading and testing LS against the Scriptures. And remember the debate is over the requirements for, NOT the results of salvation.
In this article Zeller shows another one of MacArthur’s views that “fails the test of Scripture.”
These men have my prayers for their recovery from the teachings of Lordship Salvation, and the extra-biblical presuppositions from the circle logic of five point Calvinism that lead to LS. In the meantime I will do what I can to advise and protect the unsuspecting from the egregious errors of Lordship Salvation so that, Lord willing, not one more falls into this doctrinal trap.
John MacArthur teaches that the God-given faith of a believer cannot be defective. Here is Zeller’s article.
Let’s allow the LS apologists to tackle Zeller’s article that is based on a direct statement by Dr. John MacArthur. Or, will they redirect away from this compelling article?
LM
For another documented example from the writing of John MacArthur that Lordship Salvation conditions the reception of salvation on a commitment to perform works read John MacArthur on James 4:7-10
Lou:
Have you been diagnosed with OCD? Paranoid schidzophrenia perhaps?!
Good heavens man, you act like a man posessed! If you are attempting to truly warn people about what you perceive to be false doctrine, you are going about it in the absolutely 180 degree WRONG way!
Stop acting like an arrogant, know it all, holier than thou pharisee and actually engage in a real conversation rather than posting rehashed hit pieces from Ultra-Fundie websites with axes to grind.
Oh, and one laast thing -- a small dose of humility and self-deprecation would do you a world of good. Pride goeth before a fall...
JDale
Have you been diagnosed with OCD? Paranoid schidzophrenia perhaps?!
Good heavens man, you act like a man posessed! If you are attempting to truly warn people about what you perceive to be false doctrine, you are going about it in the absolutely 180 degree WRONG way!
Stop acting like an arrogant, know it all, holier than thou pharisee and actually engage in a real conversation rather than posting rehashed hit pieces from Ultra-Fundie websites with axes to grind.
Oh, and one laast thing -- a small dose of humility and self-deprecation would do you a world of good. Pride goeth before a fall...
JDale
Lou Martuneac
New Member
Rippon:
You need to submit your emotions to the lordship of Christ and control of the Spirit of God. Your reactions are showing and they will be your undoing.
Try to focus on the doctrine.
LM
You need to submit your emotions to the lordship of Christ and control of the Spirit of God. Your reactions are showing and they will be your undoing.
Try to focus on the doctrine.
LM
Lou Martuneac
New Member
Rippon said:
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
We compare what Lou Martuneac CLAIMS John MacArthur believes and teaches, to what John MacArthur actually believes and teaches from his book or his website. Any one without an agenda can clearly see the difference.Lou Martuneac said:
It is obvious that Lou Martuneac is simply following the message of one of his heroes, George Zeller. Lou Martuneac's judgment is clouded and Lou Martuneac's eyes are blinded to the truth of what MacArthur actually believes and teaches because it would be too painful for Lou Martuneac to admit his hero, George Zeller, is wrong about what MacArthur believes and teaches.
This is more irrefrutable evidence that Lou Martuneac cannot be trusted to accurately and honestly state what John MacArthur believes and teaches.
Lou Martuneac should not be considered a serious scholar, writer, blogger, or contributor to the BB.
peace to you
raying:Lou Martuneac
New Member
To All:
I began the Lordship's "Turn from Sin" FOR Salvation thread with this opening comment,
Because of their emotionalism and lack of fair discussion practices I try not to name or directly reference the LS/MacArthur apologists. However, canadyjd just posted another ill-advised comment that needs to be drawn attention to. I would rather not have to embarrass him again, but he needs to be shown and others warned of how far askew of the true nature of the Lordship controversy he is looking in from.
His (canadyjd’s) history shows that for months he was trying to defend LS as MacArthur defines it, but admitted he had never read any of MacArthur's books. All the while he kept instructing BB readers to go to the Grace to You site and read MacArthur’s Introduction to Lordship Salvation for the truth of what MacArthur believes.
Here is an example of what must have been the dozens of repostings by canadyjd of this referral and link to MacArthur’s Introduction to Lordship Salvation.
Today, in another BB thread on LS, canadyjd posts this amazing statement,
This is what happens when a man who does not read or fails to read with discernment and therefore, does not understand what he is trying to defend.
Canadyjd, you should prayerfully consider bowing out of these discussions until such time you come to understand LS and exactly what MacArthur is teaching through his various apologetics on Lordship Salvation. If that time ever comes you might at least be able to deal with the teaching instead of the personality issues that dominate your comments and enflames your passions.
IMO, the tone and nature of your repetitive comments do not reflect the heart of a man who is living a Spirit-filled life at this particular time.
LM
I began the Lordship's "Turn from Sin" FOR Salvation thread with this opening comment,
It was canadyjd whom I was referencing that does not understand these issues.
Because of their emotionalism and lack of fair discussion practices I try not to name or directly reference the LS/MacArthur apologists. However, canadyjd just posted another ill-advised comment that needs to be drawn attention to. I would rather not have to embarrass him again, but he needs to be shown and others warned of how far askew of the true nature of the Lordship controversy he is looking in from.
His (canadyjd’s) history shows that for months he was trying to defend LS as MacArthur defines it, but admitted he had never read any of MacArthur's books. All the while he kept instructing BB readers to go to the Grace to You site and read MacArthur’s Introduction to Lordship Salvation for the truth of what MacArthur believes.
Here is an example of what must have been the dozens of repostings by canadyjd of this referral and link to MacArthur’s Introduction to Lordship Salvation.
(See comment #2 under my article, Sixth Lordship Distinctive- Reviewed, which ironically is based on MacArthur’s Introduction to Lordship Salvation.)
Today, in another BB thread on LS, canadyjd posts this amazing statement,
Canadyjd spent months directing BB readers to that very same on line article by MacArthur. Dozens of times he linked to and referenced that article as the source of what MacArthur really believes about LS. Now that I have referenced a paragraph from the same article he endorsed and demonstrated from that paragraph one of the egregious errors of LS canadyjd back peddles on his dozens of previous endorsements of MacArthur’s Introduction to LS.
This is what happens when a man who does not read or fails to read with discernment and therefore, does not understand what he is trying to defend.
Canadyjd, you should prayerfully consider bowing out of these discussions until such time you come to understand LS and exactly what MacArthur is teaching through his various apologetics on Lordship Salvation. If that time ever comes you might at least be able to deal with the teaching instead of the personality issues that dominate your comments and enflames your passions.
IMO, the tone and nature of your repetitive comments do not reflect the heart of a man who is living a Spirit-filled life at this particular time.
LM
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
To all. I haven't backpeddled on anything. Please go to MacArthur's website or read his books to discover what he believes.
Lou Martuneac has told you the article in question gives John MacArthur's position of being "born again". I'll post the article again. If someone other than Lou Martuneac can see the words "born again" or "regenerated", please point me to them.
Again, if anyone sees the words "born again" or "regeneration" in this quote, point them out to me and I will offer a heartfelt apology to Lou Martuneac.
We shouldn't overlook the fact that MacArthur is accurate in what Jesus has said. Matt. 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the Kingdom of heaven."(7:21)"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord. will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father who is in heaven will enter." (7:24) "Therefore eveyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man..."
But, back to the point of interest.
Lou Martuneac has occassionally acknoweldged that John MacArthur believes and teaches a man is regenerated (born again) prior to faith. He then claims this quote gives MacArthur's beliefs on being born again (regenerated) as occuring after making a commitment to Christ proving MacArthur teaches a works based salvation. That is a contradiction that Lou Martuneac doesn't appear to be able to explain.
Lou Martuneac, would you please take a few minutes off from your smear of John MacArthur to explain why this is not a contradiction?
And while you are at it, would you please take a few minutes off from your smear of John MacArthur and explain why you, the expert on what John MacArthur believes and teaches, was unable to accurately identify the context of the quote from MacArthur's book that you have repeatedly used in your smear of John MacArthur.
And while you are at it, would you please take a few minutes off from your smear of John MacArthur to explain why, even after I demonstrated to you the context of the quote by actually quoting the paragraph in context (who would have thought a non-expert would think of such a thing), you continue to use the same quote as if your out-of-context smear had not been exposed to everyone who cares (which may be only you and me at this point).
Lou Martuneac, nor anyone else, has to agree with anything John MacArthur believes and teaches. If Lou Martuneac wants to be considered an expert in this field, IMHO, he must be able to accurately and honestly state the other person's beliefs. So far, Lou Martuneac has been unable or unwilling to do that.
peace to you allraying:
Lou Martuneac has told you the article in question gives John MacArthur's position of being "born again". I'll post the article again. If someone other than Lou Martuneac can see the words "born again" or "regenerated", please point me to them.
Again, if anyone sees the words "born again" or "regeneration" in this quote, point them out to me and I will offer a heartfelt apology to Lou Martuneac.
We shouldn't overlook the fact that MacArthur is accurate in what Jesus has said. Matt. 5:20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the Kingdom of heaven."(7:21)"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord. will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father who is in heaven will enter." (7:24) "Therefore eveyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man..."
But, back to the point of interest.
Lou Martuneac has occassionally acknoweldged that John MacArthur believes and teaches a man is regenerated (born again) prior to faith. He then claims this quote gives MacArthur's beliefs on being born again (regenerated) as occuring after making a commitment to Christ proving MacArthur teaches a works based salvation. That is a contradiction that Lou Martuneac doesn't appear to be able to explain.
Lou Martuneac, would you please take a few minutes off from your smear of John MacArthur to explain why this is not a contradiction?
And while you are at it, would you please take a few minutes off from your smear of John MacArthur and explain why you, the expert on what John MacArthur believes and teaches, was unable to accurately identify the context of the quote from MacArthur's book that you have repeatedly used in your smear of John MacArthur.
And while you are at it, would you please take a few minutes off from your smear of John MacArthur to explain why, even after I demonstrated to you the context of the quote by actually quoting the paragraph in context (who would have thought a non-expert would think of such a thing), you continue to use the same quote as if your out-of-context smear had not been exposed to everyone who cares (which may be only you and me at this point).
Lou Martuneac, nor anyone else, has to agree with anything John MacArthur believes and teaches. If Lou Martuneac wants to be considered an expert in this field, IMHO, he must be able to accurately and honestly state the other person's beliefs. So far, Lou Martuneac has been unable or unwilling to do that.
Now you have gone and hurt my feelings:tear:Lou Martuneac said:
peace to you all
raying:
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Lou Martuneac
New Member
Forgiveness, Eternal Life is to be Born Again
Excerpting from the quote by MacArthur,
Apart from corrupting and redefining the obvious meaning of the "Gospel," it is impossible to divorce receiving "forgiveness" of sin and "eternal life" from the term and what it means to be "born again."
LM
Excerpting from the quote by MacArthur,
Now, let's put the bold sections together,
The Gospel is God's redemptive plan for lost mankind. When the lost man believes the Gospel he receives "forgiveness" and he receives the gift of "eternal life," i.e. he is "born again."
Apart from corrupting and redefining the obvious meaning of the "Gospel," it is impossible to divorce receiving "forgiveness" of sin and "eternal life" from the term and what it means to be "born again."
LM