Can God-Given Faith be Defective?

[canadyjd]

Excerpting from the quote by MacArthur,
Now, let's put the bold sections together,
The Gospel is God's redemptive plan for lost mankind. When the lost man believes the Gospel he receives "forgiveness" and he receives the gift of "eternal life," i.e. he is "born again."

Apart from corrupting and redefining the obvious meaning of the "Gospel," it is impossible to divorce receiving "forgiveness" of sin and "eternal life" from the term and what it means to be "born again."

You are confusing the God-given gift of "eternal life" i.e. "salvation" (that is appropriated by God-given faith), with the God-given gift of regeneration, which is also a work of God but prior to faith. The entire process of faith is a gift of God the Father and a work of Holy Spirit.

Once again, does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occurs prior to faith.....or.....does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occur after a person believes with a faith that includes repentance and Lordship?

Can you explain why that is not a contradiction? How can MacArthur believe both?

Personally, I see the work of Holy Spirit in regeneration as a separate work from the indwelling of Holy Spirit that occurs at the reception of salvation via faith. I agree with MacArthur, however, that the process of salvation is all a work of God and men can do no work to merit the reception of eternal life.

peace to youraying:

 

[J.D.]

Anyone that knows the "ordo salutis" that JM holds to would know that when he speaks of an "offer" and a "call", he is speaking of the ministry of the preached word in conversion, NOT regeneration. If JM were speaking of regeneration, then he would say so. LM continues to put words in JM's mouth that he didn't say.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Matthew 7:1-2

It is likely some of you men that I mean to share this passage and admonition with will react badly and question my motive for posting even this. Nevertheless, I feel as though I owe you the admonition of Jesus to those who call into question the motives of another.

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again,” (Matthew 7:1-2)

J. Vernon McGee made an interesting comment on this passage that I think some of you might benefit from. McGee wrote,

These verses have really been misunderstood. To judge can mean “to decide, to distinguish, to condemn, to avenge,” and it actually can mean “to damn.” These verses do not mean that a child of God is forbidden to judge others, but it does mean that we are not to judge the inward motives of others in the sense of condemning them.

We do not know or understand why a brother in Christ does a certain thing. We see only outward acts. God doesn’t forbid judging wrong and evil actions, as we will see. The point is that if you are harsh in your judgments of others, you will be known as the type of person who is severe in his considerations of others. (Thru the Bible with J. Vernon McGee, Vol. 4, p. 40.)

 

[Lou Martuneac]

You are confusing the God-given gift of "eternal life" i.e. "salvation" (that is appropriated by God-given faith), with the God-given gift of regeneration, which is also a work of God but prior to faith. The entire process of faith is a gift of God the Father and a work of Holy Spirit.

Once again, does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occurs prior to faith.....or.....does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occur after a person believes with a faith that includes repentance and Lordship?

Can you explain why that is not a contradiction? How can MacArthur believe both?

Personally, I see the work of Holy Spirit in regeneration as a separate work from the indwelling of Holy Spirit that occurs at the reception of salvation via faith. I agree with MacArthur, however, that the process of salvation is all a work of God and men can do no work to merit the reception of eternal life.

Instead of dealing with the obvious meaning and implicaton of MacArthur's quotation, which defining how a lost man is "born again," you have to redefine it in the extra-biblical presuppositions of Calvinism's regeneration prior to and apart from faith. Whether or not a man believes in these extra-biblical presuppositions eternal life and forgiveness of sin is to be born again.

To reiterate:

The Gospel is God's redemptive plan for lost mankind. When the lost man believes the Gospel he receives "forgiveness" and he receives the gift of "eternal life," i.e. he is "born again."

Apart from corrupting and redefining the obvious meaning of the "Gospel," it is impossible to divorce receiving "forgiveness" of sin and "eternal life" from the term and what it means to be "born again."

Is the "forgiveness" of sin and recieving "eternal life" one and the same in terms as being, "born again?"


LM

 

[J.D.]

Instead of dealing with the obvious meaning and implicaton of MacArthur's quotation, which defining how a lost man is "born again," you have to redefine it in the extra-biblical presuppositions of Calvinism's regeneration prior to and apart from faith. Whether or not a man believes in these extra-biblical presuppositions eternal life and forgiveness of sin is to be born again.

To reiterate:
Is the "forgiveness" of sin and recieving "eternal life" one and the same in terms as being, "born again?"


LM

The issue at hand is not whether we agree on regeneration before faith, but what JM's words mean in light of his view of the order of salvation. This is what renders your entire critique of JM invalid. JM never says "in order to get born again, you must do this or do that". No, he says, in effect, "when you have been born again, you will desire to do this or do that". Birth first, then conversion. You may not agree with it, fine, but stop trying to make JM say something he didn't say. Canadyjd has repeatedly shown you your error, but you persist.

If you don't agree with birth first, then start a thread and it can be debated just as it has been many times before here on BB. Either way, why can't you stop your unwarrented and inaccurate attacks on John MacArthur?

 

[canadyjd]

Once again, Lou Martuneac, does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occurs prior to faith.....or.....does MacArthur believe regeneration (being born again) occur after a person believes with a faith that includes repentance and Lordship?

You have claimed that John MacArthur believes and teaches both positions.

Can you explain why that is not a contradiction? How can MacArthur believe both?

Are you capable of answering directly?

peace to youraying:

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Canadyjd:

The Gospel is God's redemptive plan for lost mankind. When the lost man believes the Gospel he receives "forgiveness" and he receives the gift of "eternal life," i.e. he is "born again."

Apart from corrupting and redefining the obvious meaning of the "Gospel," it is impossible to divorce receiving "forgiveness" of sin and "eternal life" from the term and what it means to be "born again."

Is the "forgiveness" of sin and recieving "eternal life" one and the same in terms as being, "born again?"


LM

 

[canadyjd]

Canadyjd:
Apart from corrupting and redefining the obvious meaning of the "Gospel," it is impossible to divorce receiving "forgiveness" of sin and "eternal life" from the term and what it means to be "born again."

Is the "forgiveness" of sin and recieving "eternal life" one and the same in terms as being, "born again?"

I will answer you directly.

Forgiveness of sin and recieving eternal life should not be used interchangably with being "born again". They are differenct terms and they convey different truths.

Now, I have answered you directly. Will you have the integrity to answer me directly?

Why will you not give a public apology to John MacArthur? You claimed MacArthur said "carnal" christians were an invention of men, when in fact MacArthur said, "carnal Christians" were an invention of men.

You rightly pointed out that I had done the same to your quote. You called my mistake "deliberately miscontruing" your statement.

If you will not publicly apologize to John MacArthur for deliberately misconstruing his statement, you will be demonstrating in plain view what I have said many times.

Lou Martuneac should not be considered a serious scholar, writer, blogger, or contributor.

We can add to that that Lou Martuneac has failed to demonstrate personal integrity in the way in which he deals with his obvious errors.

peace to youraying:

 

[HankD]

Why will you not give a public apology to John MacArthur? You claimed MacArthur said "carnal" christians were an invention of men, when in fact MacArthur said, "carnal Christians" were an invention of men.

What is the difference in what Lou has claimed he said and what he did say?

Or is there a typo in this sentence?

Thanks
HankD

 

[canadyjd]

What is the difference in what Lou has claimed he said and what he did say?

Or is there a typo in this sentence?

Thanks
HankD

I'll post what I said from the other thread "the apology...."

Originally Posted by Lou Martuneac
I will address an important subject even though my original statement was deliberately misconstrued by placing carnal and Christian within quotation marks, The misconstrue appears this way, ...the phrase "carnal Christians"? My comments appear this way, "carnal" Christians.

Lou Martuneac rightly pointed out that I had misquoted his statement. He had used the phrase "carnal" Christians. I responded by asking about "carnal Christians".

When I saw what I had done, I immediately and sincerely apologized to Lou Martuneac. It was unintentional. I believe we should present others statements as accurately and truthfully as we can. Otherwise, we shouldn't be using "quotes".

I'll repost my public apology:

canadyjd said:
My apology to you, Lou Martuneac. I should have paid closer attention to what you had written. I assure you that I did not deliberately miscontrue what you had said.

The NASB uses the word "fleshly" instead of "carnal". It has been so many years since I have read out of the KJV, that I couldn't remember the exact passages where "carnal" was used. Romans, Gal., but I had forgotten I Cor. 3.

Again, it was not deliberate.

peace to you

With this exchange in mind, please notice what Lou Martuneac said on another thread (Are there Carnal Christians?).

Lou Martuneac said:
On the "carnal" Christian John MacArthur says,

The tragic result is that many people think it is fairly normal for Christians to live like unbelievers. . . . As I noted. . . . contemporary theologians have devised an entire category for this type of person--the “carnal Christian.”

While it may be commonplace for “Christians to live like unbelievers,” it certainly should not be “normal” for any Christian. The “carnal Christian” is not a category “devised” by “contemporary theologians.” It is a category of believers (“brethren”) identified in the Word of God, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by the Apostle Paul.


Walter Chantry and John MacArthur must ignore the clear teaching of Scripture to arrive at the conclusion that the “carnal” Christian has been “devised,” invented, or fabricated only in recent times. (emphasis mine)

Lou Martuneac twice misconstrued John MacArthur's statements in the same way that I misconstrued his. The wording is exactly the same. John MacArthur used the phrase "carnal christians" and Lou Martuneac claimed he said "carnal" christains.

Whether there is a big difference between "carnal" christians and "carnal christians" isn't the point. The point is that Lou Martuneac claimed that I had "deliberately miscontrued" his statement when I made the same error that he later made.

Therefore, since Lou Martuneac has made the same error, we must conclude that what he did was "misconstruing" John MacArthur's statement, for which Lou Martuneac should apologize, just as I apologized.

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

Let it go. raying:

 

[canadyjd]

Let it go. raying:

I appreciate the advice. I know it is getting old to watch.......

But yet, Lou Martuneac continues his never-ending smear of John MacArthur........

What to do, what to do..........?????????

.........Yeh, I guess it's time to let it go. Thanks Amy.G

peace to youraying:

 

[Amy.G]

I appreciate the advice. I know it is getting old to watch.......

But yet, Lou Martuneac continues his never-ending smear of John MacArthur........

What to do, what to do..........?????????

peace to youraying:

Let it go. :laugh:

Sometimes you just have to accept what is. John MacArthur will be fine.

I hope you don't think I was fussing at you.

 

[Amy.G]

CanadyJD, I think we were posting at the same time.

God Bless. :saint:

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Because this thread has been going on for days and the page count growing I believe some readers who are new to this thread may not realize what the purpose was in the first place. The article that opened this thread clearly defines one of the doctrinal missteps of John MacArthur's Lordship Salvation. This is Pastor George Zeller's penetrating review of one of John MacArthur's Lordship views that fails the test of Scripture.

John MacArthur teaches that the God-given faith of a believer cannot be defective:

“Scripture teaches that salvation is all God’s work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Eph. 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Phil. 1:6; cf. Heb. 11).” (An Introduction to Lordship Salvation by John MacArthur, from Grace Community Church’s The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation).

MacArthur’s reasoning is as follows: Faith is a gift of God. If God gives it, then it must be perfect. How could God give an imperfect gift? And if God’s gift is perfect, then it cannot be defective. The main problem with this view is that it contradicts many passages of Scripture which show that the faith of believers can, at times, be defective.

When Peter denied the Lord three times in a moment of weakness, he certainly had a lapse of faith. His faith was defective. Because of our Lord’s intercessory ministry, Peter was assured that his faith would not ultimately fail: “I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:32). On this one occasion Peter’s faith failed and was defective, but thanks to the faithfulness of Christ, his faith would not ultimately fail. Another example of Peter’s faith being defective is found in Galatians 2:11-14 when Paul had to strongly rebuke Peter because he was not walking uprightly according to the truth of the gospel.

Other passages indicate that the faith of believers can, at times, fail. How many times did our Lord say to His disciples who believed on Him, “O ye of little faith?” The faith of Thomas was defective when he refused to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead. The apostles recognized that their faith was not everything it should be when they said to Jesus, “Lord, increase our faith!” (Luke 17:5).

But the biggest proof that the faith of believers can be defective is seen by each one of us when we think about our own walk with the Lord and how many times we failed to trust Him as we should have. If faith is God’s perfect gift which can never be defective, then why would a believer ever sin? MacArthur believes that “Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly” (same document), but how could this be true if the faith of Christians is not defective. Doesn’t every sin in some way involve some failure of faith?

MacArthur’s teaching that the faith of believers cannot be defective fails the test of Scripture. The reason any of us persevere to the end is not due to our great faith, but due to the great faithfulness of our Saviour who is “able to keep [us] from falling, and to present [us] faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy” (Jude 24). Amen!

I especially encourage BB guests to read Zeller’s article, John MacArthur’s Position on the Lordship of Christ. In that article Zeller discloses and examines some of MacArthur’s most egregious errors.


LM

 

[HankD]

The OP concerns God given faith and whether or not it can be defective.
My concern is not primarily with personalities (but they must of necessity be involved to some degree).

Right now I would like to address this issue apart from the writings of these men (as much as possible).

Faith that is given by God can in no way be defective.

However, I believe the Scripture teaches that of those with this God given faith many indeed do come short of the perfection of this faith.

Perfection means complete, mature but not sinless perfection.
Though it is the will of God that we do not sin.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Yet even within this desire expressed by the Spirit of God through the Apostle John is the advocacy of Jesus Christ as our intercessor.

There is Scripture which speaks of carnal Christians.

First the Corinthian believers are called sanctified saints…

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Later they are rebuked for their carnality.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

In another place they are warned about the repercussions of eating the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner (for instance coming to communion while drunk).


1 Corinthians 11
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Just how far can things get out of hand before the Lord lets loose the chastisement?

Revelation 2
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Now I am certainly not saying that a Christian can get away with committing fornication or going back into the bondage of sin. Obviously we cannot and may even be taken home for the evil done in the body.

But the scriptural evidence is that Christians are indeed capable of being carnal and have the ability to do some terribly evil things.

After justification comes sanctification to mortify/crucify the flesh from whence comes carnality which appears to be the condition of “babes in Christ”

Sanctification is a life long endeavor.

So, while God’s gift of faith through grace is perfect and in no wise defective in that it brings with it eternal life, the requirement of sanctification through faith is not always attained to a high degree in the believer and he/she can even be a miserable failure in this area.

1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The key is the foundation that no man can lay than that is laid which is Jesus Christ.
He is the author and finisher of our faith.

We build upon that faith which brings the absolute promise of eternal life.
In that it cannot be defective ("I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish").

But as to the rewards of gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stuble, some receive a reward,
some lose all yet they themselves are saved.



HankD

 

[canadyjd]

Let it go. :laugh:

Sometimes you just have to accept what is. John MacArthur will be fine.

I hope you don't think I was fussing at you.

I have....you're right.....no I didn't.:wavey:

peace to youraying:

 

[webdog]

The OP concerns God given faith and whether or not it can be defective.
My concern is not primarily with personalities (but they must of necessity be involved to some degree).

Right now I would like to address this issue apart from the writings of these men (as much as possible).

Faith that is given by God can in no way be defective.

However, I believe the Scripture teaches that of those with this God given faith many indeed do come short of the perfection of this faith.

Perfection means complete, mature but not sinless perfection.
Though it is the will of God that we do not sin.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Yet even within this desire expressed by the Spirit of God through the Apostle John is the advocacy of Jesus Christ as our intercessor.

There is Scripture which speaks of carnal Christians.

First the Corinthian believers are called sanctified saints…

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Later they are rebuked for their carnality.

1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

In another place they are warned about the repercussions of eating the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner (for instance coming to communion while drunk).


1 Corinthians 11
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Just how far can things get out of hand before the Lord lets loose the chastisement?

Revelation 2
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Now I am certainly not saying that a Christian can get away with committing fornication or going back into the bondage of sin. Obviously we cannot and may even be taken home for the evil done in the body.

But the scriptural evidence is that Christians are indeed capable of being carnal and have the ability to do some terribly evil things.

After justification comes sanctification to mortify/crucify the flesh from whence comes carnality which appears to be the condition of “babes in Christ”

Sanctification is a life long endeavor.

So, while God’s gift of faith through grace is perfect and in no wise defective in that it brings with it eternal life, the requirement of sanctification through faith is not always attained to a high degree in the believer and he/she can even be a miserable failure in this area.

1 Corinthians 3
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The key is the foundation that no man can lay than that is laid which is Jesus Christ.
He is the author and finisher of our faith.

We build upon that faith which brings the absolute promise of eternal life.
In that it cannot be defective ("I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish").

But as to the rewards of gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay stuble, some receive a reward,
some lose all yet they themselves are saved.



HankD

Great post!