Originally posted by DHK:
God does command all to repent. But God never put the COC in the place of God to judge who has repented and who has not. That is where you err, and grievously err. It is heresy.
Did I judge whether or not someone had repented? I must have missed that part. Repentance isn't all that hard to recognize. Watch this:
- If an adulterer repents, he stops committing adultery.
- If a horse thief repents, he gives back the horse.
- If a blasphemer repents, he stops blaspheming.
Do I need to go on? When one repents, he makes a change in his mind about the way he's conducted his life, and determines to live differently. As a result, his behavior must
change. If it doesn't, what has he done? Has he repented? No, he hasn't.
Now, what if his behavior changes overall, but he slips up now and then, and occasionally exhibits his "old ways"? Does this mean he never repented? No. It means he stumbled. A stumble does not equate to turning around and going the opposite direction.
Let me give you a couple of examples.
1. My parents are Roman Catholic. To my knowledge they have not trusted Christ as their Saviour. They are not saved. They are as unsaved as the heathen in Africa. Yet, morally and righteously they live better lives than the average born again Christian. They put most Christians to shame. Their good works are many. They give to charities. They are hospitable and kind. They go out of their way to help others, even strangers. If they weren't unsaved they would be model Christians. What I am saying is that good works is not an indicator of repentance. God looks at the heart, but the COC looks at the outward appearance. It is a false teaching.
I'm sorry to hear about your parents. They do indeed sound like a nice couple. I would agree that they are lost.
To say that their good works does not indicate repentance is true.
I would say that for them, repentance would be more their turning from Catholicism to Christ as a way of salvation. As you said, their behavior hardly needs improvement, but their faith is misplaced.
2. More importantly, I know how you would judge and condemn my wife which is really pitiful. You see she was raised a Bible Presbyterian. The Presbyterians baptize infants, and thus she was baptized as an infant. We know and believe that is unscriptural because an infant cannot have faith. But at the age of 7 she realize her sinful condition and her mother led her to the Lord. She knows that at that age she was saved, born again by the Spirit of God. At that age she received forgiveness of sins, eternal life, and was born into the family of God. But she was not baptized because in the Presbyterian Church she had already been baptized as an infant.
Was she then saved Bmerr? You answer this!
You know that I have been warned by the administrator about answering questions like this. However, since you have demanded an answer, I will give one.
The administrator will please understand that a moderator (DHK) has demanded an answer to this question.
No, she wasn't. I say this, not because it is my opinion, but because the NT does not show that salvation is given as you described.
Then, when she married me some 15 years later, she became a Baptist and was baptized Scripturally, for we reject infant baptism as baptism at all. You must be saved first and then be baptized as a step of obedience after salvation. We, of course, accepted her testimony of salvation, and then proceeded to baptize her by immersion. Was she saved at 7? Was she not saved for the intervening 15 years? Was she only saved when she was immersed 15 years later? Or is she still not saved because she has not been baptized in the COC church by a COC minister? Is that it Bmerr?
I would ask the administrator to again see that DHK has asked a question and demanded an answer.
Sir, the Bible does not require one to be baptized by a chruch of Christ minister. There are, to my knowledge, no restrictions on the right to baptize. For some reason, denominationalists seem to have the idea that only the "pastor" can perform the "unnecessary" duty of baptizing people. I don't know why this is the case.
Also, the Bible tells us that it is in being baptized for the remission of sins that one is added to the church by the Lord. Or, if you meant that the baptism would have to be in the baptistry of a chruch of Christ's building, no, anywhere there is sufficient water for immersion is fine.
BTW, growing up in a Christian family and receiving Christ a young age there was no visible change in her life. Only she knew and God knew of the inward change in her life. Others really could not tell. Repentance was there, but most would have never known. She had grown up in a Christian family, always submissive to her parents. What was there to change? How would you judge if she had repented or not?
I'd say the change would be in her recognizing her need for Christ, and turning to Him by following the pattern of salvation found in the NT.
One does not need to sink to the depths that I did in order to repent. The greater one's life is dominated by sin, the more noticeable one's repentance will be.
This is the COC fallacy. You judge by outward appearance. God judges by the heart which man cannot see.
Jesus said that the heart was the origin of a man's actions (Mat 12:33-37). A tree is known by its' fruit. God will judge according to men's deeds (2 Cor 5:10).
You pretend to take the place of God. That is heresy.
This is the second time you have falsely accused me of this. And you continue to imply that I am a heretic. I'm asking you to stop it. Show the same courtesy you demand for yourself.
You are not God, and cannot see the heart. You do not always know when repentance has taken place. That is your big mistake.
Does anyone else see the rank hypocrisy here?
I quoted pertinent Scripture so that you could see the error of your way. But you don't want to see it.
You quoted the part of the verse that you thought made your point. I gave the rest of it, and you didn't like it. I'm sorry.
Repentance is judged only according to COC legalistic submission, not according to God's judgement, which you have no idea of. You are not God, neither is your Cambellite cult.
Now you've done it! You're claiming to know my heart! How can you say I have no idea of God's judgement? Are you God? I just may have to file a complaint.
And there you go calling me a cultist again
.
Repentance is not tied to baptism, as I demonstrated in the testimony of my wife.
I'm sorry, sir, but the testimony of your wife is not my authority. God's word is, and it says that repentance
is tied to baptism with regard to the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). No disrespect to you wife, but I'll take God's word over hers, if you don't mind.
I myself was not baptized until two years after I was saved. Previously your exact words to me were: "You are not saved sir." You in as much condemned me to hell, something that only God has the power to do. You put yourself in the place of God. How arrogant! Are you omnipresent and omniscient? You act like it.
I'm not even getting into that again. Diane got pretty mad at me last time, and sent me a nasty-gram. Anyway, you do the same thing to me, except nobody minds that, do they?
Yes, but the change of action is not according to COC theology, the theology of a cult. The change is according to God, not you. You cannot judge the inner workings of the heart. Only God can do that. Why do you continue to put yourself in the place of God?
See, you did it again.
Getting back to the topic of the thread, repentance is not something infants are capable of, and thus, they are not Biblical candidates for baptism.
I agree with that.
DHK
Nice to agree with you on something!
In Christ,
bmerr
