Can man change God's mind?

[Iconoclast]

It goes beyond parables, though. There are numerous historic incidents in Scripture when God relented and changed His mind.

It seems that way,however that is where it has been historically understood that God puts it into words that we can relate to more readily....
in other words- The outcome was what God desired to begin with.
It is not that he needed to change His mind,or respond to anything in us.

Jonah /Nineveh......if they did not repent they would have been destroyed.
God new they would repent anyhow. [so there is no what if].....
The overall effect humanly speaking.....God repented.....yet He never ever has to repent,or never has to voluntarily take advice from men or angels.
If as scripture says he knows the end from the beginning it never is even an issue.
So the result is actually it never happens that way.

 

[DHK]

If as scripture says he knows the end from the beginning it never is even an issue.
So the result is actually it never happens that way.

Good post. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. He is omniscient and knows all things. If He didn't He would not be God. So he knows the choices that we make before we even make them--even the ones that we waffle on.

However, within his sovereignty God has given man free will. He has permitted or allowed man to choose of his own free will to receive or reject Christ. This is in the realm of His sovereignty. He already knows what the decision is, but that does not negate the fact that it is man who decides. Faith is an integral part of salvation. Belief is an important part of all decision making. We are not robots but human individuals made in the image of God, given a will with the ability to choose. God saw fit to do this. He did not program some to choose Him and program others to reject Him.

 

[Tom Butler]

Hezekiah proves that God's mind can be changed. He cannot be forced to change His mind, but the scripture clearly shows that he will change depending on the circumstances.

This is something that the Calvinist will never admit to, it shows another weakness in their doctrine.

Let me throw a couple of questions into the conversation.

Exactly when was it that God knew that Hezekiah would get sick?

Exactly when was it that God knew Hezekiah would beg for his life?

Exactly when was it that God knew he would give Hezekiah 15 more years, and that he would do it in answer to Hezekiah's prayer?

The answer, of course, is from eternity. There never was a time when God didn't know something.

So, if God knew the circumstances, and knew that he would give Hezekiah more life if he would ask for healing, and knew that Hezekiah would ask, how could that be construed as God's changing his mind?

And, a little Calvinist twist to the story: was God's knowledge of this situation from eternity the result of his decree that this would happen?

Although I believe that had Hezekiah not prayed for healing, he would have died, I also don't believe that was ever going to happen.

 

[Iconoclast]

Good post. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. He is omniscient and knows all things. If He didn't He would not be God. So he knows the choices that we make before we even make them--even the ones that we waffle on.

However, within his sovereignty God has given man free will. He has permitted or allowed man to choose of his own free will to receive or reject Christ. This is in the realm of His sovereignty. He already knows what the decision is, but that does not negate the fact that it is man who decides. Faith is an integral part of salvation. Belief is an important part of all decision making. We are not robots but human individuals made in the image of God, given a will with the ability to choose. God saw fit to do this. He did not program some to choose Him and program others to reject Him.

DHK'
I can agree with you that man has a will.....but It is not" free".
We make choices.....jelly or jam.....red or green.....what food to eat ,etc.
Scripture describes mans will as self will.
Rom6:16-21 best describes what many of us mean about mans will being bound......by his nature.

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

in verse 20 men were said to be ....free from righteousness....

Some say that before the fall Adam's will was free??? I believe it was at best untested
DHK.....I do not believe free will exists....man has choices ,but especially since the fall our wills are bound by our nature.
I believe this is the only scripturally defensible position.

 

[DHK]

DHK'
I can agree with you that man has a will.....but It is not" free".
We make choices.....jelly or jam.....red or green.....what food to eat ,etc.
Scripture describes mans will as self will.
Rom6:16-21 best describes what many of us mean about mans will being bound......by his nature.


in verse 20 men were said to be ....free from righteousness....

Some say that before the fall Adam's will was free??? I believe it was at best untested
DHK.....I do not believe free will exists....man has choices ,but especially since the fall our wills are bound by our nature.
I believe this is the only scripturally defensible position.

There is no such thing, even within our own system of government as complete freedom. We are bound by the laws of our government and other authorities. I am not "free" to drive my car the way I like or "feel like." It would be against the law. My will is bound by the laws of the land. Yet it is still a choice I get to make. And I will pay the penalty if I make the wrong choice.

God in his infinite mercy gave us a will. He set the boundaries within his own nature and sovereignty. It is a free will inasmuch as he gives us the freedom to make those choices to either bring him glory or refuse to bring him glory. Even if we refuse, we know that God will be glorified with or without us. It is us that will lose out by refusing to obey his will. He knows what our choice will be. But he hasn't taken away our ability to make it.

 

[Winman]

Romans 6:16 does not teach that we are bound, it says we become servants to whom we YIELD ourselves servants to obey. Yield means to give way or surrender. This does imply a force upon us, but no one has to surrender, it is a choice. In WWII the Germans would surrender by thousands to our armies, while the Japanese were known to fight to the death and often did. So to yield or surrender is a choice.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,
We make choices.....but you said this;

It is us that will lose out by refusing to obey his will. He knows what our choice will be. But he hasn't taken away our ability to make it.
__________________

Sin and the sin nature has taken away our ability to choose for God ,it is not that God has made us "robots" as you say. All of are choices are stained by sin.

23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Psalm 14
1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

No one denies free agency or choice about things in life.When it comes to the spiritual realm we are all ruined in Adam....we do not seek God on His terms. We might choose religion , or good works,,,but apart from God giving a new heart we will not have this Man to reign over us is the natural mans choice.

14But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Winman,
the term servant in Romans 6.....is willing bondslave....you are mis-understanding the term yield as it is used in Romans 6.

Romans 6:16 (Common English Bible)
16 Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, that you are slaves of the one whom you obey? That’s true whether you serve as slaves of sin, which leads to death, or as slaves of the kind of obedience that leads to righteousness.

16Do you not know that if you present yourselves(A) to anyone as obedient slaves,[a] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

[/QUOTE]

Romans 6:16 (Young's Literal Translation)

16have ye not known that to whom ye present yourselves servants for obedience, servants ye are to him to whom ye obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?

 

[SolaSaint]

The attribute of immutability states that God does not change and if He did we would be standing on promises that were not garanteed. I'm not sure about all of you all, but this is very important to the beleiver. The other poster in here who stated that the writers of Scripture used words like relent and repent for us to comprehend is correct as I have learned in my studies, otherwise we wouldn't understand. Remember Isaiah tells us that His ways are not our ways, and this is something that is difficult but also leads us to totally trust and not lean on our own understanding. Thank God!

 

[gb93433]

I cannot change God's mind but He can do whatever He chooses. However He isnot limited to what we know as a mind. So that does not even fit in with what man thinks about changing a mind.

 

[The Word]

I read inother posts, that God is unchangeable and He cannot and will not be changed by anything that we, humans, do. People have said that prayer does not change God's mind but He changes us by changing our will. I do believe God is unchangeable in the aspect of His righteousness. That will never change. But our prayers, I believe, have a great influence on God's decisions.

There are several instances in the OT where God repented or relented from doing something because he was approached by man.
One example: Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. (This was after Moses spoke / prayed to God) God had already made his mind up to destroy the children of Isreal until Moses interceded. They reasoned together and God changed His mind. A lot of people don't seem to like the fact that God loves us so much, that He's willing to reason with us and listen to us...Go figure.
Exodus 33:17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
Sounds to me like God was not only listening to man but was doing what man asked of Him.
I feel sorry for people who feel and believe that God doesn't listen to them.
I truly believe that the sincere prayers of a believer and follower has a lot of influence on the decisions that God makes. Doesn't mean that He always does what we ask, but I believe He takes everything into consideration. Ultimately, He's going to do whatever He wants to do, but to say that our prayers don't affect his decision making is unbelievable. He even listens to us when it's not in our best interest. Just look at when Isreal wanted a king. God knew that wasn't in the best interest of Isreal, but because they asked, He gave them a king and later on in the scripture, God changed his mind about Saul.
1Samuel 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented (regretted) that he had made Saul king over Isreal.

Also, in 2 Kings 20:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
20:2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the Lord, saying,
(Hezekiah prays and in verse 5 and 6, God changes his mind and decides to heal Hezekiah and adds 15 years to his life all because of Hezekiah asked. )


What's your thoughts on this subject. Does God listen to man? Can man influence God's decisions? If not, what's the point of prayer?

We're living God's plans that he made before creation. This is why we have prophesies about the last day that were written over 2500 years ago. Nothing will be added or subtracted from his plans so if any man's will is changed it's because it was planned to happen.

 

[webdog]

Let me throw a couple of questions into the conversation.

Exactly when was it that God knew that Hezekiah would get sick?

Exactly when was it that God knew Hezekiah would beg for his life?

Exactly when was it that God knew he would give Hezekiah 15 more years, and that he would do it in answer to Hezekiah's prayer?

The answer, of course, is from eternity. There never was a time when God didn't know something.

So, if God knew the circumstances, and knew that he would give Hezekiah more life if he would ask for healing, and knew that Hezekiah would ask, how could that be construed as God's changing his mind?

And, a little Calvinist twist to the story: was God's knowledge of this situation from eternity the result of his decree that this would happen?

Although I believe that had Hezekiah not prayed for healing, he would have died, I also don't believe that was ever going to happen.

The problem you have here is Jesus also existed from eternity past, is God and is omniscient...yet doesn't know the day or the hour of His return. Fact is we cannot know what God knows on every and all matters. If He chooses to interact with His creation in a certain manner, He is able to do just that.
I think it's telling that God ADDED 15 years to Hezekiah's life...not that these 15 years were part of His pre-determined lifespan.