Can man desire to be reconciled to God?

[zrs6v4]

Billy Graham said something like, I'd be happy if 5% of those who go forward were really saved. I think there are two kinds of "seeking God" 1) selfishly in that if they get God and are saved then it is finished Im good and 2) the kind where one earnestly seeks God, is saved, and endures to the end through a real conversion

 

[Skandelon]

Pinoy,

You said God deserves all the credit and honor, but when I list the verses where even God himself gives man honor/credit for his faith or deeds you divert the discussion to how much you honored your parents and how we don't honor each other enough on this board.

Then you say, "Crediting a man for any accomplishment is fine." Well, how is that not taking honor/credit from God? The fact is, your system is not a realistic workable system. How does God reward man when its ALL him? Shouldn't the reward be only his? Should He say, "Well done my good and faithful servant," or "Well done Me?"

My point is that you are not willing to do something that God does and commands us to do. Honor one another. Reward good deeds. Yes, God gives us all that we need to do good deed and to believe and for that He should be honored and glorified, but that does not remove man's responsibility. We have a part to play. And we will be rewarded or punished accordingly. This is the problem with your system. There is really no grounds to rebuke man for their lack of faith if indeed faith is ALL God's doing and none of man's? How does it make ANY sense at all for Jesus to say, "Oh, you of little faith!" in a system where He is the irresistible dispenser of faith.

How does it make any sense for God to say, "O Jerusalem, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." Shouldn't He have said, "O Jersusalem, I was not willing to gather you as a hen gathers her chicks and that's why your were not willing to come."

 

[pinoybaptist]

To believe Calvinism, one must blind themselves to reality. It is clear many thousands of unsaved people seek God. Here is a photo from a Billy Graham crusade. Calvinism would have you believe that every single person in this crowd was regenerated to have the desire to be saved, and that each one would be irresistably saved.

And your theology would make us believe that everyone who went to the crusade and came in front were able to do so of their own accord, no thanks to God, because God created an unpardonable error when He said that "there is none that seeketh" since He had it written before the time of Billy Graham.

And please, find a picture of a small church, non-descript, perhaps in a rural area, pastored by an unknown man.
Not an "evangelistic" rally in a major city, a rally preceded by advertising and plug-ins in talk show, with the whole shebang of choirs and known singers like Beverly Shea, whose main speaker "rubs elbows" with kings and presidents and prime ministers and hailed by even mainstream media, and then maybe you will sound believable.

Posting a picture like this to prove your point makes you seem.....juvenile.

Calvinism is utter nonsense and a person must delude themselves to deny reality to believe it.

And your theology is a pile of bull dung elevating man to a position he does not and never will deserve.

There, skan, helllloooo ?

See what I mean ?

 

[Winman]

Billy Graham said something like, I'd be happy if 5% of those who go forward were really saved. I think there are two kinds of "seeking God" 1) selfishly in that if they get God and are saved then it is finished Im good and 2) the kind where one earnestly seeks God, is saved, and endures to the end through a real conversion

If only 5% are saved, then Calvinism is false because Calvinism teaches God's grace is irresistable.

If unsaved unregenerate people are so hateful toward God, then why would they come in the first place? If I hated God as you say the unregenerate do, you couldn't drag me to one of these events.

 

[pinoybaptist]

If only 5% are saved, then Calvinism is false because Calvinism teaches God's grace is irresistable.

What a pathetically insufficient understanding of the doctrine, and you imply in some of your posts to have the scholarly ability to research and understand human law ?

If unsaved unregenerate people are so hateful toward God, then why would they come in the first place?

And how do you know those who came to that rally were all unsaved, unregenerate people ?

How do you know that ?

If I hated God as you say the unregenerate do, you couldn't drag me to one of these events.

Well, you're you, and they're they. You can't compare yourself to them.

 

[zrs6v4]

If only 5% are saved, then Calvinism is false because Calvinism teaches God's grace is irresistable.

If unsaved unregenerate people are so hateful toward God, then why would they come in the first place? If I hated God as you say the unregenerate do, you couldn't drag me to one of these events.

I would say that the 5% were the ones who actually received God's saving grace. When someone cries or professes Christ, it doesnt mean that they have received God's Son.

There could be a number of reasons why they come. There are those who didnt want to go but did, those who wanted to go to see billy graham, those who are actually saved, and those who are interested in God. There are probably more, but mere interest in God isn't what it means to seek God. Now I wouldn't disagree with the fact that maybe they knew a little about Jesus and God used that to draw them, or something similar.

On page two I tried to list my reasons for my conviction. I was listening to John Piper last week and he preached on John 6. He showed how Jesus fed 5,000 men and only 11 were left at the end of chapter 6. That isnt what convinced me, but I thought that was an interesting thing.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I would say that the 5% were the ones who actually received grace. When someone crys or professes Christ, it doesnt mean that they have received grace.

There could be a number of reasons why they come. There are those who didnt want to go but did, those who wanted to go to see billy graham, those who are actually saved, and those who are interested in God. There are probably more, but mere interest in God isn't what it means to seek God. Now I wouldn't disagree with the fact that maybe they knew a little about Jesus and God used that to draw them, or something similar.

:thumbs:
Good analysis, my man.
Good analysis.

 

[Winman]

And your theology would make us believe that everyone who went to the crusade and came in front were able to do so of their own accord, no thanks to God, because God created an unpardonable error when He said that "there is none that seeketh" since He had it written before the time of Billy Graham.

And please, find a picture of a small church, non-descript, perhaps in a rural area, pastored by an unknown man.
Not an "evangelistic" rally in a major city, a rally preceded by advertising and plug-ins in talk show, with the whole shebang of choirs and known singers like Beverly Shea, whose main speaker "rubs elbows" with kings and presidents and prime ministers and hailed by even mainstream media, and then maybe you will sound believable.

Posting a picture like this to prove your point makes you seem.....juvenile.




And your theology is a pile of bull dung elevating man to a position he does not and never will deserve.

There, skan, helllloooo ?

See what I mean ?

No, this photo proves your doctrine false, it is as simple as that. I don't care how much advertizing you do, if a man truly hates God, he is not going to come.

Anybody who has ever been out on visitation knows that not everybody invited comes. Oh, some will lie and say they will come, but you won't see them Sunday morning. Why? Because they agreed just to get rid of you, they really didn't want to come.

And I have never said that people aren't drawn by God. They are. Where we differ is that I believe the unsaved, unregenerate have the ability to respond to God's drawing. You don't.

If Calvinism is true, every single person in this crowd would have to be regenerated to have the desire to come hear God's word, and every single one of them would trust Christ and be saved. They have to, because God's grace is irresistable.

So, as I said before, to believe Calvinism a person must delude themselves into denying reality.

 

[Winman]

I would say that the 5% were the ones who actually received God's saving grace. When someone cries or professes Christ, it doesnt mean that they have received God's Son.

There could be a number of reasons why they come. There are those who didnt want to go but did, those who wanted to go to see billy graham, those who are actually saved, and those who are interested in God. There are probably more, but mere interest in God isn't what it means to seek God. Now I wouldn't disagree with the fact that maybe they knew a little about Jesus and God used that to draw them, or something similar.

On page two I tried to list my reasons for my conviction. I was listening to John Piper last week and he preached on John 6. He showed how Jesus fed 5,000 men and only 11 were left at the end of chapter 6. That isnt what convinced me, but I thought that was an interesting thing.

Pure speculation on your part. I'm telling you, if I hated God the way Calvinism says unregenerate man hates God, you are not going to get me to come.

You see here what your doctrine causes you to do? You are having to rationalize away the truth you see with your own eyes. You are creating excuses to fool your own self to deny reality.

 

[pinoybaptist]

And I still say your theology is for the insanely unregenerate.

 

[zrs6v4]

:thumbs:
Good analysis, my man.
Good analysis.

I was also thinking that people looking for God and can't find Him (The God of Israel) is another sign of God having to come to find them. Billions are interested in God and there are millions of religions (most cults). Without God coming and revealing Himself, even Scripture will lead them to an idol.

 

[Winman]

I was also thinking that people looking for God and can't find Him (The God of Israel) is another sign of God having to come to find them. Billions are interested in God and there are millions of religions (most cults). Without God coming and revealing Himself, even Scripture will lead them to an idol.

If unsaved, unregenerate people are interested in God, then the doctrines of Calvinism are false. Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate have no desire or interest in God whatsoever.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I was also thinking that people looking for God and can't find Him (The God of Israel) is another sign of God having to come to find them. Billions are interested in God and there are millions of religions (most cults). Without God coming and revealing Himself, even Scripture will lead them to an idol.

Which is basically what is meant by Total Depravity.
Spiritual inability to come to God on His terms.
Spiritual inability to please God.
Blinded.
The unregenerate is religious, really, except that their religion is one of wanting to be "as gods".
Cain's sacrifice was unacceptable to God, because it did not meet God's standards: blood, and life.
Abel's was.
The question is : Did able know this on his own. If he did, why not Cain ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

.......... Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate have no desire or interest in God whatsoever.

again, pathetic ignorance of the doctrine.
your mouth works faster than your brain, really.

well, gotta run, be with family.
Merry Christmas, one and all.

 

[Skandelon]

Winman,

Experience does support our claims, I agree. How is that children are almost always very receptive to the gospel while many adults who have been exposed to the gospel for a long time are not? Why does Jesus say we must become like a child to enter the kingdom if indeed all men are born equally dead?

Truth is, Calvinism confuses the biblical teachings about hardening as support for their so called "Total Depravity." Mankind is not born repulsed by God. They are not born blind, deaf or unable to respond to the clear gospel. The bible teaches that they become defiled and they grow calloused. They aren't born that way. Yes, they are born with a sin nature in need of a savior, but no where does it teach they are born so depraved that they cannot respond in faith to God's divine message of reconciliation.

I cover this in the post titled:
Did God ever prevent people from believing the gospel?

 

[zrs6v4]

Pure speculation on your part. I'm telling you, if I hated God the way Calvinism says unregenerate man hates God, you are not going to get me to come.

You see here what your doctrine causes you to do? You are having to rationalize away the truth you see with your own eyes. You are creating excuses to fool your own self to deny reality.

I would examine then what I mean by "hate God"

I "don't" mean that everyone is kicking and cursing God

I mean that everyone is so warped in idolatry (root of sin after the dark heart) that even though they may think they love God and many think that they know and follow Jesus; they actually despise His ways and at heart they disobey "blindly" and continue in idolatry. Example: the girl that has been going to church on Sunday, acknowledges that Jesus is her Savior, but yet continues in sin (because she loves it) and serves other gods without even having a clue or being disturbed.

 

[Winman]

Winman,

Experience does support our claims, I agree. How is that children are almost always very receptive to the gospel while many adults who have been exposed to the gospel for a long time are not? Why does Jesus say we must become like a child to enter the kingdom if indeed all men are born equally dead?

Truth is, Calvinism confuses the biblical teachings about hardening as support for their so called "Total Depravity." Mankind is not born repulsed by God. They are not born blind, deaf or unable to respond to the clear gospel. The bible teaches that they become defiled and they grow calloused. They aren't born that way. Yes, they are born with a sin nature in need of a savior, but no where does it teach they are born so depraved that they cannot respond in faith to God's divine message of reconciliation.

I cover this in the post titled:
Did God ever prevent people from believing the gospel?

You are absolutely correct. And this photo I presented proves that unsaved man can and does respond to God's calling. But the Calvinists must deny reality that they can clearly see with their own eyes.

So, if ever there was an argument that men are blinded, Calvinism is a fantastic example of this.

 

[Skandelon]

Which is basically what is meant by Total Depravity.
Spiritual inability to come to God on His terms.
Spiritual inability to please God.
Blinded.
?

What are his terms? Faith. Where does the bible teach men are unable to have simple child like faith in the revealed truth of God? Where? Please provide the text.

"Without faith you cannot please God" (Heb 11), but where does it say we cannot respond in faith? Where?

Blinded? Really? I've pointed out many verses that speak of men growing blind over a time of continual rebellion. I have shown where God has blinded men with a "spirit of stupor" and by preaching in parables. I have shown where it says that "otherwise they might have repented," but you have yet to show one verse where it says men are born blind. They may be born ignorant of the truth, but nothing is said about them being unable to respond to the that truth once its is presented to them. NOTHING.

 

[pinoybaptist]

chew on these and spit them out if it burns your tongues:

Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.

Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Have fun twisting them to prove man is basically good and not totally depraved.
Happy New Year.

 

[zrs6v4]

If unsaved, unregenerate people are interested in God, then the doctrines of Calvinism are false. Calvinism teaches that the unregenerate have no desire or interest in God whatsoever.

If that is what Calvinist's think (I dont think that proper teaching does) then I disagree with them. I define a true desire differently than just a simple interest. I dont think a doctrinally sound Calvinist would disagree. To have a simple/half desire is like saying I like this part of you God, but I reject that. To desire must mean to fully like Him regardless of what He says or does, but for who He is. What He says and does are good, but even if He destroys me and my family, I will honor Him fully because He deserves no less.

a true heart desire to live for and serve God with all of your heart mind and soul in the name and freedom of Jesus Christ is simply a different than to being interested in God.

Interests in God or a god classifies tons of people
but
Desiring the God of Israel with all your being classifies only those that know and love Him and I would say are born again/saved by Jesus blood.